Is Aikido a martial art?

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
I think Henry Ellis has made some excellent observations in his articles. I am fortunate to have a teacher who teaches Aikido as a martial art. In terms of ability I would say he is as good a martial artist as I have met. Everything he teaches is from a martial point of view and includes atemi. Every technique we train is tested against total resistance.

On the other hand I have met many high ranking Aikidoka who have no ability to make things work against even the slightest resistance. Maybe they could do something against an untrained person but maybe not. That is the 'dance crowd' that Henry Ellis is talking about.

To me, Aikido is definitely a true martial art if practised the way it was practised years back. Unfortunately a lot of schools don't teach realistically and that reflects badly on Aikido in general.
:asian:
 

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Many people today have never seen or heard of hard Aikido training and therefor have only a "modern" view of what it is and what it once was
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
Many people today have never seen or heard of hard Aikido training and therefor have only a "modern" view of what it is and what it once was
We certainly don't "lock the doors" and test it in the way the article states but the application of the techniques can be full on. The main problem as I see it with the training we do, is the damage to joints. In my case elbows in particular have been my major impediment. My knees were damaged in a double leg takedown some months back, something you might not expect from Aikido, and I'm still training with support on one.
:asian:
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Article said:
It is my opinion that Abbe Sensei would not have studied Aikido as it is today.


Neither would I. Really a shame what happened to the art, based on all the stories I hear of old school Aikido.
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Neither would I. Really a shame what happened to the art, based on all the stories I hear of old school Aikido.
Thank God for that. Can you imagine how insufferable you would be if you had the first clue about Aikido?
:hmm:
 

hussaf

Green Belt
Joined
May 15, 2010
Messages
178
Reaction score
53
I hate when I visit aikido dojo and I get treated like a child because I don't naturally understand the story of how and why uke is supposed to move as nage ineffectually moves around
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Thank God for that. Can you imagine how insufferable you would be if you had the first clue about Aikido?
:hmm:

Clearly my attitude towards Aikido is shared by many, including some veteran Aikido practitioners who lament about the "good old days".
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
Clearly my attitude towards Aikido is shared by many, including some veteran Aikido practitioners who lament about the "good old days".
Fortunately not all schools are as bad as you believe. Your attitude to Aikido and other martial arts is deplorable. There are many martial arts I wouldn't train for any number of reasons and that includes Karate in some forms. Just you won't find me bagging them. If you have nothing constructive to say, why say it at all?
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Fortunately not all schools are as bad as you believe. Your attitude to Aikido and other martial arts is deplorable. There are many martial arts I wouldn't train for any number of reasons and that includes Karate in some forms. Just you won't find me bagging them. If you have nothing constructive to say, why say it at all?

I didn't say "all Aikido schools". Also I wasn't "bagging" Aikido, I was simply agreeing with the article.
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
I didn't say "all Aikido schools". Also I wasn't "bagging" Aikido, I was simply agreeing with the article.
Originally Posted by Article
It is my opinion that Abbe Sensei would not have studied Aikido as it is today.


Originally Posted by Hanzou
Neither would I. Really a shame what happened to the art, based on all the stories I hear of old school Aikido.
No that's not bagging. So what do you call it? I call it offensive for a start.

But let's look at the articles again ...

Originally Posted by Article
I believe that we now have two aikido’s, traditional aikido which if truly traditional (this word is much abused) is the martial side of Aikido, the soft fantasy and dancing style of Aikido should simply be categorized as an “Art”.


Those who are true traditional Aikidoists will take no offence at this article, yet the dancers will probably be offended and I care little for their feelings as I honestly believe that this soft Aikido has no more right to call itself a martial art than has synchronized swimming has a right to be in the Olympics.
I take no offence at the article. I think it is factually correct.
Originally Posted by ArticleThe reason that I am so critical and vociferous about Aikido is that every day I see these people watering down this great martial art that I have spent most of my life studying, teaching and promoting for the past 46 years. I am often asked “Sensei, which do you think is the best and worst martial art”.


I always make the same reply, "All the martial arts are good, if there is a problem with any martial art, then it can only be the people who represent that particular art who misrepresent their art".
Here is Henry Ellis teaching. I'm expecting that you agree that this is good Aikido ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-hEuTx6bOg

Perhaps Abbe Sensei may still have studied Aikido in a traditional Aikido school after all.

So do you agree with all of the article or just the parts that fit your perception?
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
No that's not bagging. So what do you call it? I call it offensive for a start.

But let's look at the articles again ...


I take no offence at the article. I think it is factually correct.

Here is Henry Ellis teaching. I'm expecting that you agree that this is good Aikido ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-hEuTx6bOg

Perhaps Abbe Sensei may still have studied Aikido in a traditional Aikido school after all.

So do you agree with all of the article or just the parts that fit your perception?


I think you're looking for a conflict where there is none. My experience with Aikido lines up with Ellis' misgivings about how a lot of Aikido is practiced. The only Aikido I've seen in person and interacted with is the dance-like stuff that Ellis abhors. Thus, I understand Ellis' frustration with how Aikido has evolved, because it really doesn't resemble a martial art as practiced in many Aikido schools.

However, you have to understand the perspective I'm coming from. I'm coming from a martial art that constantly demonstrates its techniques on opponents trained and untrained in it. Its used against everyone from boxers to wrestlers with devastating effect. When it is demonstrated, it is done in a very practical method which is very hard to argue against.

Aikido simply doesn't do that. So when I look at that Ellis video, it doesn't really impress me. It's an old guy throwing around an overweight guy who is clearly his student. It is a demonstration that tells me nothing about the effectiveness of Aikido. Is it good Aikido? I suppose so. Is it something I would like to invest time into learning? Not really because it doesn't look "real" to me. I would like to see Ellis utilize those abilities against a wrestler or a boxer, but that never happens. Instead, all we have are stories, and folk tales about the masters of old performing these incredible feats of ability that somehow can't be re-created in the modern day. After listening to that stuff for years in karate, I'm done with it. I need more than stories of frail masters throwing body builders around like rag dolls, I need to see it to believe it.

His son Rik is trying to take Aikido into the MMA world, but looking at his fight vids, he looks like the typical MMA fighter. He then goes on to make a variety of excuses as to why you don't see Aikido in his fighting style. It really doesn't help the situation, it just makes things worse.

I'm sorry, but I'm a skeptic. This article gives a reasoning behind my skepticism. Again, it's not my intention to "bag" on Aikido, this is merely my view as an outsider looking in. I would like to believe in Aikido. I just can't. Maybe someday someone will come out of the shadows and dominate boxers, wrestlers, Judokas, kick boxers, and others with their great Aikido skills. When that happens, I will be a believer.

Hopefully this helps you understand where I'm coming from. :)
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
However, you have to understand the perspective I'm coming from. I'm coming from a martial art that constantly demonstrates its techniques on opponents trained and untrained in it. Its used against everyone from boxers to wrestlers with devastating effect. When it is demonstrated, it is done in a very practical method which is very hard to argue against.
:BSmeter:
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PLP_DInpPHE[/video]

Where's the BS?
Your entire elitist post was BS. Stop with the "my arts the only art that tests itself". Its nonsense. And spare me the Youtube "proof" I can make a video of my Dog beating down someone and show it as proof that my dog fu style is the best.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
Your entire elitist post was BS. Stop with the "my arts the only art that tests itself". Its nonsense. And spare me the Youtube "proof" I can make a video of my Dog beating down someone and show it as proof that my dog fu style is the best.

What was elitist about my post? I was merely explaining my view of Aikido through my experience and perspective. The video I posted is an example from that perspective that you called "BS".

If you wish to see a truly elitist post, look no further than your response to Hussaff.
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
What was elitist about my post? I was merely explaining my view of Aikido through my experience and perspective. The video I posted is an example from that perspective that you called "BS".

If you wish to see a truly elitist post, look no further than your response to Hussaff.
No the BS was your nonsense that your art "TESTS" itself and aikido doesnt. Your Art is no better or worse then any other. So spare me the tap out t-shirt wearing BS. You dont like Aikido great dont train in it but to say its not tested is nonsense how do you know? Ive personally used it as a police officer against real life bad guys not in a cage with rules, refs, time limits, advance notice, and corner men. Guess what it worked so there you go a real life "test" Sorry it wasnt recorded and put on youtube. Guess what Ive used things from BJJ and Goju in real life to so go ahead and check them off as "tested" as well
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,770
Reaction score
1,330
No the BS was your nonsense that your art "TESTS" itself and aikido doesnt.

Where did I say that Aikido doesn't test itself? I simply said that I have certain requirements to buy into the claims made by martial arts. Aikido hasn't met those requirements, and the OP article gives an interesting theory as to why that is.

Your Art is no better or worse then any other. So spare me the tap out t-shirt wearing BS.

And no where did I say it was.

You dont like Aikido great dont train in it but to say its not tested is nonsense how do you know? Ive personally used it as a police officer against real life bad guys not in a cage with rules, refs, time limits, advance notice, and corner men. Guess what it worked so there you go a real life "test" Sorry it wasnt recorded and put on youtube. Guess what Ive used things from BJJ and Goju in real life to so go ahead and check them off as "tested" as well

Well that's the problem isn't it? It's never recorded or verified. It's simply more tales of greatness and ability from days gone by with no proof whatsoever to show for it.

Again, I sympathize with the article's author, and his view of modern Aikido is very similar to my experiences with modern Aikido.
 

Latest Discussions

Top