is aikido a grappling martial art?

[Manny]

Sorry to ask this but I am a little confused, it's aikido a grappling martial art? As long as a Iknow aikido is a martial art that uses evasions,trows and joint manipulations, can be this a grappling martial art?

Thank you.

Manny

 

[ATACX GYM]

Aikido has extensive standing grappling techs. The joint locks,throws,sweeps,displacements,trips,rolls,falls,and ground submissions makes it without question a grappling art...

 

[MJS]

As ATACX said, there is alot of standing stuff. I'm not an authority on Aikido, but what I have seen of it, there isn't any ground grappling. There may be some, again, I dont know, unless individual students/schools, add it in.

 

[Jenna]

I think it depends upon what you mean by grappling Manny

Aikido is not a grappling art perhaps the way you mean like wrestling / groundwork. This kind of grappling is not present to anywhere near the same extent as Judo or BJJ etc.

Aikido is predominatly a "stand up" martial art.

However if you widen the definition of grappling or use the term "ne waza", then this definition can incorporate joint locking, choking and submission-type techniques, all of which you will find in various forms in Aikido.

Can Aikido be used in a modern grappling context? It is unlikely that an Aikidoka would do as well against a trained grappler on the ground. True, most Aikido techniques can be executed from any position however they are designed mostly as stand up techniques and that is why we must become well versed in feather falling and very rapid rising from falls (ukemi) so we do not end on the ground.

I hope this makes sense a little Jenna

 

[ATACX GYM]

I think it's no surprise to those who've seen my videos via the link on my sigs when I state that I apply a variety of hapkido/aikido joint locks from all subpositions

 

[Buka]

No.

But I really like Aikido. A whole lot, actually.

 

[Chris Parker]

I gotta say, I'm a little surprised by some responces (and indeed by the question itself, really...) stating Aikido is not a grappling art. Since when did "grappling" refer exclusively to groundwork? It never has, and simply doesn't. Very simply, striking is impact based, and grappling is seizing based. If you are seizing (grabbing, holding, pulling, pushing, squeezing, choking, pinning etc) then it is grappling. End of story. Stand up, seated, on your back on the ground, or whatever, if it's seizing, then it's grappling.

So yes, Manny, Aikido is absolutely grappling. It just isn't BJJ.

 

[Buka]

I guess it's a matter of definition. I really like the term "seizing" to describe an art. I had never thought of it that way before.
But, to me, when I think of"'grappling" arts, I think of wrestling and ground fighting based Jitsu arts. My mental picture of Japanese Jiu-jitsu arts and Aikido tend to fall into the category of control arts, at least that's how I think of them. But that's just me.

No matter really, they're all good.

 

[Chris Parker]

The application of the term "grappling" to refer specifically to ground fighting is an advent of MMA, basically it seems as a generalisation to differentiate it from kickboxing (we also have grappling!), and for some reason it's stuck. I'm a little surprised that martial artists themselves took to it the way they did, but there you go.

Oh, and for the record (and this is a huge pet peeve of mine...), there is no such thing as "Japanese Jiu-Jitsu". It's an old mistake made by Westerners that dates back to the early 20th Century, but the terms "Jutsu" and "Jitsu" are completely different words with completely different meanings ("Jiu" is kinda okay, but not the typical preferred).

But really, "grappling = grabbing", is probably the best way to think of it. Regardless of the height. Most Japanese Jujutsu systems are primarily standing grappling, for instance.

 

[JohnEdward]

Wrestling styles (BJJ included) are all good examples of defining grappling. Aikido in my view is more of a throwing art with some ground work.

 

[Buka]

The application of the term "grappling" to refer specifically to ground fighting is an advent of MMA, basically it seems as a generalisation to differentiate it from kickboxing (we also have grappling!), and for some reason it's stuck. I'm a little surprised that martial artists themselves took to it the way they did, but there you go.

Oh, and for the record (and this is a huge pet peeve of mine...), there is no such thing as "Japanese Jiu-Jitsu". It's an old mistake made by Westerners that dates back to the early 20th Century, but the terms "Jutsu" and "Jitsu" are completely different words with completely different meanings ("Jiu" is kinda okay, but not the typical preferred).

But really, "grappling = grabbing", is probably the best way to think of it. Regardless of the height. Most Japanese Jujutsu systems are primarily standing grappling, for instance.

Yes, but I think you know what I meant.

 

[Tanaka]

Wrestling styles (BJJ included) are all good examples of defining grappling. Aikido in my view is more of a throwing art with some ground work.

Wrestling is a throwing art too.

Aikido is (No ifs ands or buts) a grappling art.
Just like other Jujutsu systems.

In fact Aikido throws can be seen in wrestling styles.
And a lot of Aikido can be seen in BJJ

 

[Cyriacus]

In my mind, Aikido is a Grappling Art.
It contains Seizures, Takedowns, Throws, Grabs, and if im not mistaken, a couple of Strikes. But its primary form is Stand Up Grappling, which may, perhaps, lead to Throws. But there are no Throwing Arts.
Having something, and therefore being its focus, are two very different things.

Aikido has throws, that does not make it a throwing Art.
Hapkido has Strikes, but it is not a Striking Art foremost.
BJJ has Submissions, but it is not a Submission Art; It is a Grappling Art.

I can understand, however, how some people can be of a different mindset.

 

[JohnEdward]

Wrestling is a throwing art too.

Aikido is (No ifs ands or buts) a grappling art.
Just like other Jujutsu systems.

In fact Aikido throws can be seen in wrestling styles.
And a lot of Aikido can be seen in BJJ

The question really is one of those pesky defining issues that never seem to play out right. It is like, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Some scientists say it is a fruit, where others say it is a vegetable and both views have evidence to support it. To make things more convoluted trends complicate the issue even more, one point in time enough people say a tomato is a fruit, and that over shadows those who term it vegetable. Then sometime later it reverses and more people decide it is a vegetable, than it reverses again. That is based on both scientific results and how a tomato is used either how it is marketed or those at the table. To what end does it serve to define a tomato as a fruit or a vegetable upon the dinning table, it gets eaten either way.

In most people's minds grappling is defined by wrestling, like where there is lots of maneuvering and struggle. BJJ, Greco-Roman, Mongolian, and all the other fighting styles termed as wrestling look alike, a standing to ground struggle where both combatants fight on the ground since ancient times. Now to complicate things, then the word grappling started to be used, to differentiate styles and evolution of wrestling. Just as grappling is used for BJJ. When we think of grappling we think of two people locked and struggling for dominance as the fight goes to the ground when it is finished. Aikido doesn't do that. In the end, this art or that is grappling or not means it just is how we term things based on visual similarities and differences.

 

[Jenna]

The question really is one of those pesky defining issues that never seem to play out right. It is like, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Some scientists say it is a fruit, where others say it is a vegetable and both views have evidence to support it. To make things more convoluted trends complicate the issue even more, one point in time enough people say a tomato is a fruit, and that over shadows those who term it vegetable. Then sometime later it reverses and more people decide it is a vegetable, than it reverses again. That is based on both scientific results and how a tomato is used either how it is marketed or those at the table. To what end does it serve to define a tomato as a fruit or a vegetable upon the dinning table, it gets eaten either way.

In most people's minds grappling is defined by wrestling, like where there is lots of maneuvering and struggle. BJJ, Greco-Roman, Mongolian, and all the other fighting styles termed as wrestling look alike, a standing to ground struggle where both combatants fight on the ground since ancient times. Now to complicate things, then the word grappling started to be used, to differentiate styles and evolution of wrestling. Just as grappling is used for BJJ. When we think of grappling we think of two people locked and struggling for dominance as the fight goes to the ground when it is finished. Aikido doesn't do that. In the end, this art or that is grappling or not means it just is how we term things based on visual similarities and differences.

Exactly!

One word: semantics

 

[Tanaka]

The question really is one of those pesky defining issues that never seem to play out right. It is like, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Some scientists say it is a fruit, where others say it is a vegetable and both views have evidence to support it. To make things more convoluted trends complicate the issue even more, one point in time enough people say a tomato is a fruit, and that over shadows those who term it vegetable. Then sometime later it reverses and more people decide it is a vegetable, than it reverses again. That is based on both scientific results and how a tomato is used either how it is marketed or those at the table. To what end does it serve to define a tomato as a fruit or a vegetable upon the dinning table, it gets eaten either way.

In most people's minds grappling is defined by wrestling, like where there is lots of maneuvering and struggle. BJJ, Greco-Roman, Mongolian, and all the other fighting styles termed as wrestling look alike, a standing to ground struggle where both combatants fight on the ground since ancient times. Now to complicate things, then the word grappling started to be used, to differentiate styles and evolution of wrestling. Just as grappling is used for BJJ. When we think of grappling we think of two people locked and struggling for dominance as the fight goes to the ground when it is finished. Aikido doesn't do that. In the end, this art or that is grappling or not means it just is how we term things based on visual similarities and differences.

No the only issue you are running into here is. You are used to seeing wrestling and BJJ applied in a live sparring sessions.
If Aikido was seen in live sparring session, you would have no doubt in your mind that it was a grappling art.
Watch a BJJ demonstration and see how much struggle you see.
Watch a Judo demonstration or kata and see how much struggle you see.

Watch two equally experienced grappling martial artist go at it. You will see some type of struggle.

 

[JohnEdward]

No the only issue you are running into here is. You are used to seeing wrestling and BJJ applied in a live sparring sessions.
If Aikido was seen in live sparring session, you would have no doubt in your mind that it was a grappling art.
Watch a BJJ demonstration and see how much struggle you see.
Watch a Judo demonstration or kata and see how much struggle you see.

Watch two equally experienced grappling martial artist go at it. You will see some type of struggle.

Exploring this idea further, I use the word "struggle" because the dictionary defines the word grapple as a verb to: engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. * seize hold of (someone). Archaic use: seize or hold with a grapnel. The origin of grapple comes out of the mid 16th cent Germanic language to mean "grapa hook" related to grape. As a noun, grapple is an act of grappling. Informal use: a wrestling match. *An instrument for catching hold of or seizing something; a grappling hook. According to the dictionary I have. The term grappling than is to hook and hold/seize resembling of a grapnel. A clinch as in fighting styles that of Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. Grappling as related to grapnel is offensive. You throw a grapnel and hook a wall or something. In fighting, reasoning then grappling is offensive.

Aikido on the other hand of what I know is a defensive art, you let the other person hold you, and upon that hold where you don't place a hold you throw the person. To throw someone to the ground in Aikido, as you do with a grappling move like a fireman's carriage, but instead use a technique like kote gaeshi that doesn't submit a person, but instead throws them -they throw themselves. The whole approach/philosophy to grappling is different than Aikido, including other things like escapes, submissions, and other areas. That is why I used the word struggle.

The other differences in terms I see, I can put into analogies are sport, art and self-defense may share properties, but they mean different activities. Aikido put in a fighting venue doesn't make it grappling. Aikido may be in a grappling venue that doesn't automatically mean it is grappling. Just as grappling in an Aikido dojo means it is Aikido. At the end of the day it is just terms. The important thing is the result is the same for both, a winner and a loser.

What matter is it that Aikido is labeled and put Aikido into a box and stamped a grappling? It is the same thing as saying is the singer Adele is pop? Doesn't really matter, she can sing and it doesn't matter if she sings at a arena concert venue like a rock star or as a Vegas headliner, it doesn't define her voice style of singing or how well she sings. That is my view, I don't think it is the only view, but it keeps things for me from being overly complicated.

 

[Tanaka]

Exploring this idea further, I use the word "struggle" because the dictionary defines the word grapple as a verb to: engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. * seize hold of (someone). Archaic use: seize or hold with a grapnel. The origin of grapple comes out of the mid 16th cent Germanic language to mean "grapa hook" related to grape. As a noun, grapple is an act of grappling. Informal use: a wrestling match. *An instrument for catching hold of or seizing something; a grappling hook. According to the dictionary I have. The term grappling than is to hook and hold/seize resembling of a grapnel. A clinch as in fighting styles that of Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. Grappling as related to grapnel is offensive. You throw a grapnel and hook a wall or something. In fighting, reasoning then grappling is offensive.

Aikido on the other hand of what I know is a defensive art, you let the other person hold you, and upon that hold where you don't place a hold you throw the person. To throw someone to the ground in Aikido, as you do with a grappling move like a fireman's carriage, but instead use a technique like kote gaeshi that doesn't submit a person, but instead throws them -they throw themselves. The whole approach/philosophy to grappling is different than Aikido, including other things like escapes, submissions, and other areas. That is why I used the word struggle.

The other differences in terms I see, I can put into analogies are sport, art and self-defense may share properties, but they mean different activities. Aikido put in a fighting venue doesn't make it grappling. Aikido may be in a grappling venue that doesn't automatically mean it is grappling. Just as grappling in an Aikido dojo means it is Aikido. At the end of the day it is just terms. The important thing is the result is the same for both, a winner and a loser.

What matter is it that Aikido is labeled and put Aikido into a box and stamped a grappling? It is the same thing as saying is the singer Adele is pop? Doesn't really matter, she can sing and it doesn't matter if she sings at a arena concert venue like a rock star or as a Vegas headliner, it doesn't define her voice style of singing or how well she sings. That is my view, I don't think it is the only view, but it keeps things for me from being overly complicated.

The same thing can happen in Judo. You can be completely defensive. Let them grab you and give you enough energy to perform a hip throw.

Same with Aikido with "Koshi Nage"

But the main point is... You want to be in close. And you want to get your hands on them.
That is grappling philosophy. You seize hold of...
In Aikido you seize hold of as well. Doesn't mean you RAN at them, or grabbed hold of them first. But you still seize hold of something most of the time to perform the technique.
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In striking arts(you may have some grappling), but your main goal is to strike. In Aikido, striking is used primarily as a way of distraction for the grappling.
Seems to me you just want to distinguish Aikido from "sports" like Wrestling and BJJ. But Aikido is a grappling art. You are trying to equivocate terms here. For your own benefit since you obviously don't want to call "Aikido" grappling. That is what seems to be the motive here.

 

[JohnEdward]

Seems to me you just want to distinguish Aikido from "sports" like Wrestling and BJJ. But Aikido is a grappling art. You are trying to equivocate terms here. For your own benefit since you obviously don't want to call "Aikido" grappling. That is what seems to be the motive here.

What is the point of your thread? Are you asking a question or trying to prove a point, trying persuade someone, is there a greater purpose to discuss this, it is lost on me? What is the importance here of terming Aikido as grappling? We don't see it in grappling venues, Aikido isn't a duck out of water. It doesn't change Aikido either way. But, Aikido was started with the idea of it not being competitive like Karate, that said, caps the well. There is a hybrid Aikido that does competitions. They hasn't been inducted into main stream fighting venues. Or any other venue outside of its own that it created, nothing wrong with that. I mean I can't for the life of me figure any reason why Aikido being or not being termed as grappling being more than a head scratching conversation. What does it matter if it is or isn't a grappling art? To keep things straight in my head and answer questions without getting all technical, boring people. I say Aikido is a throwing art, it ain't wrestling, because people have a specific picture in their mind what wrestling looks like, and Aikido doesn't fit that. Grappling by definition is wrestling, they are inter-changable words. It is weird to say that Jujutsu or Judo is Japanese wrestling, for some ears that sounds odd. Instead we say Jujutsu is Japanese grappling that fits in the ears of many better. When we say Japanese wrestling we think Sumo, as it more closely fits with picture of wrestling. Honestly, it don't matter if you call Jujutsu or Judo wrestling or Aikido grappling. But in my mind, I call it a throwing art, cause you ain't on the ground entangled in a fight struggling to get a submission. It's all just labels to help us talk about it.

 

[Tanaka]

What is the point of your thread? Are you asking a question or trying to prove a point, trying persuade someone, is there a greater purpose to discuss this, it is lost on me? What is the importance here of terming Aikido as grappling? We don't see it in grappling venues, Aikido isn't a duck out of water. It doesn't change Aikido either way. But, Aikido was started with the idea of it not being competitive like Karate, that said, caps the well. There is a hybrid Aikido that does competitions. They hasn't been inducted into main stream fighting venues. Or any other venue outside of its own that it created, nothing wrong with that. I mean I can't for the life of me figure any reason why Aikido being or not being termed as grappling being more than a head scratching conversation. What does it matter if it is or isn't a grappling art? To keep things straight in my head and answer questions without getting all technical, boring people. I say Aikido is a throwing art, it ain't wrestling, because people have a specific picture in their mind what wrestling looks like, and Aikido doesn't fit that. Grappling by definition is wrestling, they are inter-changable words. It is weird to say that Jujutsu or Judo is Japanese wrestling, for some ears that sounds odd. Instead we say Jujutsu is Japanese grappling that fits in the ears of many better. When we say Japanese wrestling we think Sumo, as it more closely fits with picture of wrestling. Honestly, it don't matter if you call Jujutsu or Judo wrestling or Aikido grappling. But in my mind, I call it a throwing art, cause you ain't on the ground entangled in a fight struggling to get a submission. It's all just labels to help us talk about it.

Aikido comes from Jujutsu. So if Jujutsu is Japanese wrestling, than Aikido is also Japanese wrestling. Aikido is actually still considered Jujutsu.
And I don't understand what you mean by "Grappling venues." If you are talking about like the MMA scene, or mainstream. Then yes, Aikido isn't seen at all. But Aikido is primarily a grappling system. Look at Aikido newaza from its suwari kata. As far as "You ain't on the ground entangled in a fight struggling to get a submission"
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The same way you call it "Aikido" because that is what it is.
The same way it is "Grappling" because that is what it is.