Is a Stab a "show stopper"??

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by KPM, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Ok so, I was the one that initially made the claim that the first hit generally ends a knife fight. Some good points were raised, and examples, of how people can and do keep fighting after theyve been hit, but generally only when they don't KNOW they've been stabbed.

    What people that've never been in a high stress life or death situation like that might not realize, is that psychological damage can stop you too. Most people, in my experience, go into shutdown/panic mode once they grok the sight of their own blood.

    Now, what this thread DOESNT have is examples to support any given point of view. I have brought a few.

    WARNING. THESE LINKS ARE NSFW, do not view with children around, if you are squeamish, or just would rather not see examples of real knife fights.

    IF THE MOD TEAM THINKS THIS IS GOING TO FAR, FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS.

    EXAMPLE #1 - machete fight
    As soon as the older man is hit, the fight leaves his body.

    Example #2
    Same here. you can see as soon as the one man realizes he is stabbed, he no longer wants to fight.

    Example#3
    in this one the man drops as soon as he realizes he's been stabbed


     
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  2. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Psychological stops are real and a well-known phenomenon. But you can't depend on it. The person has to know he's been hit, has to believe that it's "bad," and has to decide that he's not going to fight through it.

    4 Ways to Stop an Opponent by Using a Knife

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There's no question that a non-lethal (or non-immediately-lethal) strike can end a fight immediately. Heck, some people give up as soon as they get a bloody nose or a black eye.

    The question is whether you can reliably count on that happening. The context of the original discussion was a knife duel where you might have just delivered a mortal wound but you are still in arms reach of an armed opponent who still has time to return the favor.

    The links posted by Kirk earlier in the thread gave historical examples of duels where one opponent was severely wounded, had plenty of time to realize it, and then kept fighting anyway, sometimes killing their opponent.

    Some people will keep going like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Some people will go into shock and die from what shouldn't even be a life-threatening injury. It's safest to not assume any particular outcome.
     
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  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Yes, there are a lot of counterexamples composing of heresay. Ive personally never seen any evidence of someone continuing to fight after being stabbed and leaking all over the place. Im sure it can happen(such as people that are severely drugged out or mentally ill), but it doesn't seem to happen very often. Those three examples come from a repository of hundreds, that all play out in a very similar way. I've personally seen a few people take stab wounds, and those all played out the same way too.

    Maybe you have a different experience.
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I am, of course.
    Of course, this attack was intended for an extremely specific situation, from ambush. And I would maintain that it would be better applied with the initial attack being a stab, rather than a blunt strike.
     
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  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Cool. Then you are familiar with the technique.


    sure. I was just curious if you were familiar with it since it will seem to stack so well with what you are describing.

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    It does.

    I will say that in the "classic" illustrations of this technique, I see two problems.
    One is, as I said, the blunt strike rather than a stab. The cut itself is fairly unlikely to open the carotid, unless you execute it perfectly. For one thing, the head needs to be rotated. The illustrations usually show this, but it's not often mentioned specifically in the texts that I've seen. It's classically done starting under one ear and ending at the other. It needs to be continued past the ear to have enough depth to the cut to reach the carotid.

    The other is the cut itself. As it's shown in the works I've seen, it's very high. Like right under the chin. I would actually suggest that lower would be better. So as to open the trachea below the larynx. If you disconnect the larynx from the lungs, it's really really difficult to make any noise.

    That's important because of the specific circumstances for which this attack is meant.

    Without the stab and head turn, there's a good chance this will not hit the carotid. But it will almost certainly sever the external jugular. That's not a super fast kill, but it is fairly quick. And if they can't make any noise, it doesn't really matter if it takes a couple minutes.

    Goodness, we're a gruesome bunch...
     
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  8. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Try to cut their head off......pretty much.
     
  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    That was....very detailed. Hmm.....
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I was thinking of this one:
    Thrust in and then rip it forward and out, like doing a pushup.

    [​IMG]

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  11. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, if an ER nurse with a graduate degree in physiology and a couple years of MA training is going to talk about ways to kill, what do you expect? :)

    Gotcha. Yes. The versions I've seen start with a hammerfist to that area. This is pretty much exactly what I'm advocating (as a theoretical discussion only. Do not try this at home).
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, my morning plans are shot.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You wouldn't stab yourself?
     
  14. Rayrob

    Rayrob Yellow Belt

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    Synchronised stabbing, they should make it an Olympic event.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    At least you did not mention your wife in that comment.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I thought the same thing looking at that. That knife looks long enough to go right through. With that thing, I'd maybe favor the subclavian stab (offered as an alternative in at least one of the manuals describing sentry takeout).
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    No, no. For her, it has to look like an accident. Double-indemnity clause, you know?

    EDIT: Yes, this is what passes for humor in our household.
     
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  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    The techniques were successfully used a bunch during WWII, so... no. You wouldn't.
     
  19. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Not bloody likely. You're penetrating a body, not a sheet of paper.
     
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  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So nobody stabbed themselves doing that?
     

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