Is a Stab a "show stopper"??

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by KPM, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    This.
    And, it depends.

    Most people who are stabbed and survive it remark that they didn't know they were stabbed at first. Often, they thought they were being punched, and kept fighting. There's a video out there somewhere of a guy who gets stabbed, beats up the guy who stabbed him, then dies.
     
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  2. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Yup. Over and over again.

    Was that one from Brazil? Outside a bar, I think, right?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  3. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    As in actual damage done speaking and not psychology, the stab wont kill you unless its in certain areas. Better way to word these arguments, i believe "physiologically speaking" might work better as a set of words.
     
  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Well duh. That's true of any injury.

    Stab wounds are far more lethal than slashes or cuts. Absolutely. End of discussion.
    Doesn't mean you're going to die fast, though.
    I've personally wrestled with a guy who had a 3cm wound in his left ventricle for about 3 minutes before he bled out enough to pass out so we could work on him. And that was after EMS arrived and transported him to the ER. So I'd guesstimate he was still fighting at least 10 minutes after he was stabbed.
     
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  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The "S cut" is more effective than the stab. But you have to use "reverse dagger hold".

    - A horizontal cut to the belly.
    - When your opponent bends back to dodge it, you cut his throat.

    The "S cut" can be seen in this clip.

    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Neither will a cut, or a gunshot, or a bludgeon, or pretty much anything else for that matter.

    According to Hochheim's well-researched book, "Military and criminal forensic science reports that stabbing yields both a higher death rate and, perhaps more importantly, a quicker death rate than slashing provides."

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
     
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  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Based on 30+ years actually treating these wounds, I'm going to say no. It's not.
    I've seen lots of people with their throats cut. Not very many died. Why? Because the things you need to cut are pretty damn deep in the neck.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Does that include the major arteries? Or are those cuts often too frontal?
     
  9. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    You mean the carotids? They're quire deep.
    Cuts tend to be shallowest at their start and end points. So, you slash them ear to ear. Guess where it's shallowest? Yup. Right over where those arteries are.
    If you want to cut someones carotid, the best plan is to stab them below the ear and then drag the blade forward. Or stab them several times.
     
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  10. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    "Nothin' but dumb luck."

    "Yeah. But that counts too."
     
  11. Rat

    Rat Purple Belt

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    For my previous post it was a example and i forgot to edit out when i found the correct word and fix it. That is the first half about stabbing, not me stating using the word physiologically. :p



    Standard tactic i have seen for that is just to stab in the throat. Obviously cited from soldiers who do CQC and that tends to be a sentry elimination thing. (tendency to try and pull the knife forward is there as well, but logically speaking if you stab them several times it might compensate for that)

    See you do learn some things from memoirs/ people speaking about their military training/experience for interviews.


    I personally would prefer stabs over cuts unless the blade in question can lop off limbs then its cuts over stabs unless there is no room for it.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    They look closer to the surface in the anatomy illustrations.
     
  13. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Rather than the neck, I've been told to aim for the knife. The theory is that someone can fight back after being stabbed/sliced in the neck, but if they've got blood in their eyes it's a lot tougher to fight, both from pain, reflex, and blindness (eye not working or blood in eyes).

    I've yet to have an opportunity to stab someone in either though, so it's all theoretical for me.
     
  14. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    They're not 3D, and the surface tissues have been removed.

    I've seen tons of people with cuts on their foreheads. I've had them myself. Never seen that as stopping someone. Scalp wounds bleed a lot, but not so much that you can't see.
     
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  15. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actual eye vs. forehead. Again though, I have no idea how difficult the accuracy is for that, and what we train for more than that is making sure we're in a position to not get stabbed back while we stab, and to stab multiple times. Even that's theoretical for me though, since I've got no intention in getting in any fights, knives or otherwise.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Well... I've only got one eye. Doesn't really affect me at all. Didn't stop me when I lost it, either.
    As for the idea that you're going to kill them with a stab to the eye...
    Maybe. If you're using a really thin and narrow blade. Like an ice pick.
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    Agree. I have a scar from 12 stitches directly on my right eyebrow from a dog chain sucker punch. If I had not gotten my hands on the guy before I realized I was bleeding I probably would have gotten boot stomped. It was summertime and I still remember how fast my eye kept filling with blood. It is unsettling but should not stop a person in a "have to" situation.
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Are you familiar with the Camp X / Fairbairn sentry removal throat attack?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Thrusts are much harder to perform while protecting yourself from a parry or counter-attack. Cuts are much easier to perform successfully while protecting yourself from counter-attacks. The crossing movement of a cut forms a natural defense for a counter-cut or counter-thrust.

    Footwork, setup, and evasive body & hand movement are, therefore, usually much more critical for a successfully thrust than a successful cut, particularly with larger blades (bowie knife and up).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Aim for what you can hit. There are some places on the body more vulnerable to cuts and some places more vulnerable to thrusts. There are some places which will essentially only produce pain and others which will cause immediate disabling injuries to the limb or the area, while others will take time. It takes TIME to bleed out. Dying ain't dead!

    Aim for what you can hit but have enough understanding of human anatomy to know what the likely results will be of your hit. A cut to the outside of the wrist will cause pain and bleeding but may make it impossible for the person to let go of his weapon, whereas a cut to the inside of the wrist could make it impossible to hold on to it.

    There's only one "magic button" and that's a CNS hit. Base of the neck or brain-box. Everything else is a crap shoot. Did you dig in deep enough to get the artery/vein? Did you do enough damage to the joint, ligaments, or muscle to incapacitate that limb? If you broke a bone, was it enough to stop that limb from being effective? If you thrust into the thorax, what did you hit? Was it a lung and how long will it take for the fighter to stop from a collapsed lung? (it could be a fairly long time)

    Dying ain't dead and while he's dying he has a fairly long time to return the favor.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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