Ippon Seio Nage

Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by PiedmontChun, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. PiedmontChun

    PiedmontChun Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Posing a question for my own curiosity, and maybe it could lead to a technical discussion....
    When throwing via Seio Nage, do you throw opponent or uke more "up and over" your shoulder where it is a straighter trajectory to the floor but you are momentarily fully under uke? (I've been told this is the traditional, Kodakan way).

    Or do you and load uke and then rock your own shoulders in such a way that uke travels more to the side as they are thrown? (If I am throwing over my right shoulder, this would mean looking and pulling toward my left side as I am executing the throw, uke ends up with head in front of my left foot). I was shown this way by another Dan level practitioner.

    I could see the "up and over" type could create a more devastating impact with the ground, but the slight spiraling nature of throwing to the side seems more graceful and friendlier to my uke, and less of a risk for me if throwing someone much larger than me since I am not loading them on top of me as much.

    I am likely wording this terribly. I consulted Kano's Kodakan book but its still not clear to me.
     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,791
    Likes Received:
    3,383
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I've seen both, but I personally use a bit of shoulder tilt so the opponent rolls a little bit and lands perpendicular to me, as you mention in the second example.

    I should add the caveat that seio nage is probably one of my worst throws, primarily because I'm a tall guy and it's extra work for me to get that low against most opponents.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. PiedmontChun

    PiedmontChun Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Thanks Tony! I had wondered if body shape played a big role in one's preference with it. The guy who showed it to me and believed strongly in the "shoulder tilt" as you put it, is also an older guy with maybe less strength overall than Sensei who showed it as a much straighter throw. I am 5'11, with a longer torso and shorter legs, but against anyone much shorter than me I definitely feel the challenge in getting my butt below their beltline. Can't imagine if I was well over 6'.
     
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,791
    Likes Received:
    3,383
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Yeah, at 6'4" I'm much more fond of techniques like uchi mata or harai goshi. I can demonstrate seio nage with good form on a compliant uke, but in real-time randori I rarely even bother to try for it.
     
  5. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    Classically, it's supposed to go up and over. But whatever gets you an Ippon is fine. It doesn't have to be pretty. Ippon Seio Nage is one of my pet projects as a tall person. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,869
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You want to throw your opponent over your shoulder. You don't want to throw him around your shoulder. In order to do so, you want to make sure that his hand is touching on your chest (not few inches away from your chest). Your other hand can also control his leg so he won't be able to step across you. IMO, since you can throw your opponent with one arm, it's better to use the other arm to control your opponent's leg than to use both arms to throw.

     
  7. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    264
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Under an Oaktree
    I was taught to lift uke up and over straight over for a more self defense way and the side more of a way for uke to take ukemi.
    In Daito Ryu I was taught a version that uses the head or helmet to break the arm and throw using your head instead of your shoulder
     
  8. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,791
    Likes Received:
    3,383
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    The version shown in that video would generally be seen as incorrect in Judo/Jiu-Jitsu because the opponent's arm is actually on the thrower's shoulder next to your neck where the opponent could use it to choke thrower if he manages to stop the throw. In ippon seoi nage, the opponent's arm is actually tucked into your bicep rather than actually resting on your shoulder.

    If chokes aren't allowed in Shuai Chaio, then that wouldn't be a consideration for you, so maybe the arm on the shoulder works well in that context.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,869
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    The neck choke is 100% legal in Shuai Chiao. By you have to use choke to throw your opponent. You just can't use joke to choke your opponent to death.

    This is why I have said that you need to have your opponent's hand to touch on your chest. When you do that, his arm can't choke you. For every throw, there are guideline to follow. If you don't meet that guideline, you will be countered. If you use "outer bowing throw", the back of your opponent's hand will touch on your chest instead. This will apply pressure on your opponent's elbow joint. It's a stand up joint lock. You can use it to throw your opponent. In "sport", you can't use it to break your opponent's arm.

    As far as I know, the stand up joint multiplication is illegal in Judo (but it's legal in the ground game). Is it true that the "outer bowing throw" illegal in Judo?

     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,036
    Likes Received:
    938
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Speaking for myself, it depends on the form of the seoi nage (oh, small aside... as I'm a stickler for these things... "seoi", not "seio"... "sey-oh-ee")... for Ippon Seoi Nage itself, as it's done with a single arm trapped on the side of my shoulder, it will tend more towards the "roll-off" version... but a Morote Seoi Nage will have more of an "up and over" feel (but taught as a "roll off" for beginners for safety)... a Seoi Otoshi (dropping Seoi Nage) is pretty much always up and over... and so on and so forth.

    Personally, I don't find that to be the real defining aspect of the throw itself... it's more to do with what happens just before that... how the "loading" happens. One of my pet peeves about this throw is in the name... it's often translated as "shoulder throw", although that would be "kata nage" (肩投). The characters for Seoi Nage instead are 背負い投.... to break that down, "se" 背 refers to the back (not the shoulder), "o(i)" 負い refers to bearing (weight) upon, and, of course, nage 投 refers to a throw... so, unlike the idea of a "shoulder throw", a Seoi Nage is a throw in which you bear the opponent upon your back (by squaring up your hips to theirs, and pulling them onto your back). What happens after that is up to the circumstances of the throw, the thrower, and the thrown.

    In other words, you should always be, at least momentarily, underneath the uke... but that doesn't mean you need to physically lift them... you simply pull them onto you, then lift up... and immediately (in most cases) continue with the throw...whether forwards (up and over), or around your shoulder. And, again, with Ippoon Seoi Nage, as the uke's arm is held beside your shoulder, then it's simpler to pull across once the opponent is loaded up.

    John, I've said this to you before. You are ignoring what is actually being asked... the throw you are showing, and the points you are making, are not relevant, as they are not Ippon Seoi Nage. I know you'll think that they're similar enough, but the fact is that, if the question is on a specific throw, having something kinda sorta similar, and deciding it's the same thing, is just showing that you don't know or understand the actual question itself.

    That is not Ippon Seoi Nage. You do not place the opponents hand on your chest in Ippon Seoi Nage. You do not, in the formal version of the throw, throw with only one hand (yours). The control of the leg is irrelevant, as the throw you're showing is not Ippon Seoi Nage, and features a different angle of entry, positioning between the opponents, and more. In fact, the throw shown I consider poorly done, dangerous, and easily countered... and is wrong in almost all details if considered Ippon Seoi Nage.

    That throw is closer to Gyaku Seoi Nage, and that is considered illegal in Judo competition due to the increased likelihood of injuring the arm (breaking it). As for everything else you have written, again, none of those points are relevant to Ippon Seoi Nage... which is what this thread is about. If you don't know the throw, that's okay... but trying to tell Judoka (and similar) how to do a throw you don't know yourself, in a way that is considered incorrect by Judo's standards, in order to match what your throwing art does is arrogant (thinking that what you do is the same, or superior), misguided (thinking that what you do is the same), and simply a waste of time.

    Look, if you want to say "in Shui Chiao we have a similar throw, we do it this way", that would be one thing... but you're telling people how to do a throw you don't know how to do yourself... insisting on your approach being "right". It's not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. PiedmontChun

    PiedmontChun Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    114
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I realized it after the fact I was spelling it phonetically how it made sense to my ears, and not correctly; I'm not sure if my browser or not but I couldn't go back and edit. I seem to have that issue a lot and typos haunt me if I don't catch them up front.

    Thanks for your clarification. I was thinking of Ippon Seoi Nage specifically as its the only one I have been taught, not the other variants, but I did not specify. Given that the uke's arm is trapped against the side of my shoulder, it does feel natural for uke to 'roll off' a bit. I will have to do both. As a beginner, throwing someone very much "up and over" was a bit uncomfortable (for fear of it not being controlled and hurting them, not hurting myself).
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Calgary, AB, Canada
    It's as important to be a good Tori as it is to be a good Uke. Ippon Seio Nage is great because you can straighten up and pull up on the sleeve after Uke goes over to soften the impact and assist with the breakfall. That is, after all, how you're supposed to do it.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page