Internal styles too complex 4 beginners?

[Trainwreck]

Indeed. I once heard the analogy that learning an internal style is like filling up a swimming pool - one teaspoonful at a time. It's slow and tedious, but when the pool is full, the person has so much to use.

Besides, I had no prior martial arts experience before I did Tai Chi and I think that I've picked it up just fine. Practice makes or breaks the student, so I try to spend as much time studying the internal arts as I usually spend on a physics class.

 

[dmax999]

A quote I once read is "Investing in learning Tai Chi is investing at losing in the beginning". This is very profound.

Everyone who starts Tai Chi fights worse then they before they started, until they begin to truly grasp the concepts of Tai Chi.

Too complex? No. Too difficult for most people to work through correctly? Probably. It is not a style that everyone has the patience to learn. However, I have yet to see anyone who keeps at it not make significant progress over time. But I also believe only a very few are dedicated enough to truly gain great skill in it.

 

[7starmantis]

We aren't speaking specifically about tai chi here, but more "internal systems" as a whole.

7sm

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

A quote I once read is "Investing in learning Tai Chi is investing at losing in the beginning". This is very profound.

Everyone who starts Tai Chi fights worse then they before they started, until they begin to truly grasp the concepts of Tai Chi.

I disagree with you here. I've been taking Tai Chi for several weeks now and think I'd be much better off in a fight. Just the internal techniques i've learned so far are already pretty well rooted; though, i guess, they won't be as good as those of someone with years of Tai Chi experience. It may just be that i understand the dynamics a lot more than most beginners, but.... I don't know. If you really work hard, you won't have to lose.

As for external style, I kind of view it as a MA embodiment of western culture. Western culture looks at physical cause-effect relationships. THey see some guy punch another guy, and that guy goes down. "that is an effective punch" they say and try to immitate it exactly. The internal way, though, looks at... the source? and moves the power from there. Hmm. I can't seem to explain it much better.

 

[brothershaw]

Good posts.
My main idea behind this thread was that often the time spent developing the internal aspects of martial arts leaves the martial aspects untrained. So in some cases the person may develop some internal aspects but not necessariliy the right tools or knowledge on how to use them martially.
Someone who has trained in more martially based systems may have a better grasp of how to use the martial aspects.

 

[dmax999]

Skankatron,
It is good that you think you are grasping on to Tai Chi concepts early on. Keep up that good attitude and you will progress quickly.

Reality is that at the beginning I believe it is impossible to fight effectively using the Tai Chi concepts. Unless you have studied something similar before, such as Ba-gua or Wing-Chun Chi-Sau, it is not possible to have enough skill to use it effectively when you start.

The problem is you have to give up on strength and forcing power, which is impossible for a novice when someone else is punching at their face. Only after gaining confidence in your practice after years will you be able to relax enough to do the manuvers properly while being puched and kicked at.

If you are better off with just a beginning of Tai Chi, you are misunderstanding its principles or you have very good quality fundamentals in another martial art that is being improved through Tai Chi.

The quote, by the way, is from Cheng Man-Ch'ing a direct student of Yang Ch'eng-fu. He knew more about Tai Chi then I could ever hope to.

 

[East Winds]

dmax999,

I agree with your summing up, and I think it is quite accurate. I always think of the "Invest in loss" phrase in terms of pushing hands. In the beginning we are either afraid of being pushed over, or our ego will not permit us to let the other person to "win". Therefore we tense up and push back using muscle power and body strength. If we continue to di this, we will never progress. In the beginning we should let it happen. If we get pushed over its OK. We "Invest in loss" by working out HOW our partner managed to push us over and try not to let it happen again. Sometimes it will take many hours to work out how to avoid being pushed over whilst still remaining relaxed and soft. This I believe is the true meaning of Invest in Loss.

Very best wishes

 

[Skankatron Ltd]

"My main idea behind this thread was that often the time spent developing the internal aspects of martial arts leaves the martial aspects untrained. So in some cases the person may develop some internal aspects but not necessariliy the right tools or knowledge on how to use them martially.
Someone who has trained in more martially based systems may have a better grasp of how to use the martial aspects"

Funny thing about this. One of my masters learned in india and told us a story about how a whole bunch of people learned only non-martial applications of tai chi and then were one day told that it was a martial art and they became instant warriors. I'm not EXACTLY sure what he meant by instant warriors, but i think the idea behind the story is that it's not hard to transfer external to internal.

"The problem is you have to give up on strength and forcing power, which is impossible for a novice when someone else is punching at their face. Only after gaining confidence in your practice after years will you be able to relax enough to do the manuvers properly while being puched and kicked at."

Funny thing about this. My masters (I have two of them) told me I'm actually too relaxed, which apparently is very rare for males. one of my masters said he was like that, too, and things just have to be approached in a different manner. I yield too much n such in push-hands.

And if what East Winds says about investing in loss is true, then I totally agree. For 90% of people there is a large mental block which says "win! Hard! Harder!" which has to be overcome and can only really be done by giving up (for any of you existentialists out there, you know what i'm talkin about). I donno, maybe it's easier for me because I'm a more open person than most.

 

[brothershaw]

Someone with prior training should have an easier understanding of the martial applications, plus some training on how to hit, punch kick, evasive footwork, what its like for someone to try to punch you , maybe some sparring. That stuff gives a good perspective to any martial artist.
They may have trouble with other things.

theory to application is a big bridge to cross even for the more external arts, especially if its against active resistance.

 

[Shadowdh]

I find some amusement in questions like "is such and such to difficult/complex for beginners..." as when we first learn something are we not all beginners...??

But I get your point... and I would answer not really and it depends on a person finding a good teacher who can show/explain it well...