Instructors, how do you defend against Sensei Seths side kick criticism?

[Acronym]

Ok...but he isn't throwing a traditional side kick. He is throwing more of a hybrid back side kick which allows him to create more power.

You can't generate that hip rotation with a traditional sidekick from a horizontal chamber without that step back into that hybrid back side kick.

I know he doesn't even demonstrate it properly but the principle he critizes of switching directions with the chamber is the same as the kick we are discussing. And his point is that you will lose momentum going up and then sideways. So even If the travel path is longer and therefore gives more room for acceleration, it won't happen in practise. But maybe you're right that with enough hip flexibility one need not lose momentum doing the up and turn.

 

[CB Jones]

But maybe you're right that with enough hip flexibility one need not lose momentum doing the up and turn.

I think that might be right.

Again, my son's instructor's instructor studied karate for 50 years. Was a professor of kinesiology for 30 years. During those 30 years they spent alot time studying different power and speed generation methods.

And for the last 10 years I have heard these explanations over and over and over....lol.

But in the end, everyone has different abilities, opinions and philosophies. So you have to do what works for you.

 

[Acronym]

I think that might be right.

Again, my son's instructor's instructor studied karate for 50 years. Was a professor of kinesiology for 30 years. During those 30 years they spent alot time studying different power and speed generation methods.

And for the last 10 years I have heard these explanations over and over and over....lol.

But in the end, everyone has different abilities, opinions and philosophies. So you have to do what works for you.

He is biased since Karate is what he is doing.

 

[CB Jones]

He is biased since Karate is what he is doing.

Biased against TKD? He trained in Korean Karate/TKD.

 

[_Simon_]

SIDEKICKS DONT WORK!

BOOM! ROASTED!

 

[_Simon_]

What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?

I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.

 

[Acronym]

I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.

Well no the kick does factor into it. If the technique is too hard for most people to do at a high level, it's not a very practical technique. Sensei Seth and Adkins are probably arguing that the range of motion and strength required to not lose steam doing the vertical to horizontal way is beyond most peoples capacities.

 

[dvcochran]

I think I understand the argument (even though I haven't watched the videos), but it's not so much that the kick ITSELF is the changing of direction. The vertical lift is the chambering, then you drive in with the hip, the kick travelling very linearly. There is no question about the power of a side kick to me, have used them very effectively in sparring, and speed is no issue if you train that chamber to be very quick.

Agree. I would add that it is not common to kick to the side like in the video. For demonstration purposes I suppose but I have never actively seen that kick practiced. It should be an easier kick to perform because there is Much less pivot involved.
I also agree that there are several mechanical motions going on at the same time. I do not think this is being fully appreciated.

 

[_Simon_]

Well no the kick does factor into it. If the technique is too hard for most people to do at a high level, it's not a very practical technique. Sensei Seth and Adkins are probably arguing that the range of motion and strength required to not lose steam doing the vertical to horizontal way is beyond most peoples capacities.

.... well then you train it. ?

All due respect, even a punch you have to train to get it working efficiently and optimally for what you are using it for.

How do you explain me getting countless sidekicks in during sparring then? Against very seasoned sparring partners?

Sure a sidekick requires a few things, so do many different techniques. Some you may use, some you may not.

No I'm saying the vertical lift/chamber doesn't take away from the kick due to some change in momentum, it's just working on control of the body. I mean, you can kick how you'd like, it's not like you're forced to do a sidekick in sparring...

There are always people that will say "NO, do NOT punch in a fight!!!" and others, "NO, you should ONLY punch in a fight!!!"

 

[Acronym]

.... well then you train it. ?

All due respect, even a punch you have to train to get it working efficiently and optimally for what you are using it for.

How do you explain me getting countless sidekicks in during sparring then? Against very seasoned sparring partners?

Sure a sidekick requires a few things, so do many different techniques. Some you may use, some you may not.

No I'm saying the vertical lift/chamber doesn't take away from the kick due to some change in momentum, it's just working on control of the body. I mean, you can kick how you'd like, it's not like you're forced to do a sidekick in sparring...

There are always people that will say "NO, do NOT punch in a fight!!!" and others, "NO, you should ONLY punch in a fight!!!"

They were arguing in terms of power, not landing the kick

 

[_Simon_]

They were arguing in terms of power, not landing the kick

Ahh ok, it is pleeeenty powerful

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think everyone is just over thinking this. For me it's simple. There are 2 ways to do a side kick. Horizontal and Vertical Chamber. The 2 different ways allow you to do other things such as chain combos. I can have my right leg forward, then turn and do a side kick with a horizontal chamber. In that scenario the Vertical chamber is not practical nor efficient. I can also use a high chamber used as if I'm going to to a front kick, but then turn into to the side kick.

The high chamber helps to sell the front kick, but also provides a "ready state" for the side kick. Trying to make things "only one way or the other" will make your martial arts very weak.

 

[paitingman]

I think everyone is just over thinking this. For me it's simple. There are 2 ways to do a side kick. Horizontal and Vertical Chamber. The 2 different ways allow you to do other things such as chain combos. I can have my right leg forward, then turn and do a side kick with a horizontal chamber. In that scenario the Vertical chamber is not practical nor efficient. I can also use a high chamber used as if I'm going to to a front kick, but then turn into to the side kick.

The high chamber helps to sell the front kick, but also provides a "ready state" for the side kick. Trying to make things "only one way or the other" will make your martial arts very weak.

Exactly. Just focusing on the video and the way the person threw the kick in the video sort of threw me off.
Actually getting up and trying it, more vertical or horizontal chamber was mainly dependant on where the target was relative to the way I was standing/positioned. Duh! lol

I don't really pay much real attention to these things anymore, but it's nice to have threads like this make me realize some of the forgotten details of what I'm doing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Exactly. Just focusing on the video and the way the person threw the kick in the video sort of threw me off.
Actually getting up and trying it, more vertical or horizontal chamber was mainly dependant on where the target was relative to the way I was standing/positioned. Duh! lol

Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is it a problem with the technique or his application of it?

My son's instructor's instructor was a professor in kinesiology and
wrote a dissertation about maximixing power and speed using karate techniques. His data supported the chamber.

So in the end, it's just different opinions.

Any chance you've got a link to that dissertation somewhere?

 

[andyjeffries]

I happen to agree with him that the way we are taught side kicks in intermediate patterns are illogical.

The knee should not take a two directional route. This makes no sense. Advanced students obviously move freely and chamber whichever way they want, but this pathway remains in the patterns .....

I wouldn't defend his opinion. Admittedly I only watched for a minute or so at the point you stated, but I don't teach people to do the first vertical chamber, we only go straight to a horizontal chamber. On the Kukkiwon master instructor and poom/dan examiner course, they didn't have anyone doing that first. It's definitely not "in the patterns", at least the Kukkiwon ones as officially defined by them.

I think the problem is that the Kukkiwon instructors advocate teaching it that way to beginners. Rather than teaching to chamber straight to horizontal they say 1) turn and lift knee, 2) turn the hip so it's horizontal, 3) kick out. But almost NONE of them actually do it that way. Unfortunately then international instructors have misunderstood that to be correct performance, rather than "a starter for 10, for someone who's a complete beginner".

I've done video analysis of high level Kukkiwon martial artists (grandmasters and athletes) and almost none of them do it like that (I know one that does). So I don't defend his opinion, I believe he's absolutely right.

 

[andyjeffries]

What about Adkins objection that you lose power/momentum by changing direction from vertical to horizontal?

I completely agree with him. That short video seemed to be going against chambering completely, I'm OK with the chamber - indeed I feel it's necessary - but it should be a horizontal chamber and should have minimal momentum loss.

 

[andyjeffries]

Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.

I completely disagree.

For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One theory I have is that we do the up-chamber for bending ready stance in order for the student to work on balance, then when they apply it freely, the up chamber is removed.


Maybe that's what the original intention was?

I've long suspected there's much in traditional training that was done for this kind of reason.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I completely disagree.

For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.

Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.