India bare knuckle
- Thread starter destructautomaton
- Start date
I don't think they have here, we have gypsies, travellers, tinkers and the Roma now, all of which are different. I've never seen seen fighting here at all.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Fede:
I believe the knife was probably part of the traveling gypsies arsenal at some point and maybe the use of it was lessened or grew extinct over time or was just kept as inside knowledge passed within families or groups. We know the spanish, italian and other gypsies knew of the knife and used it for self protection.
Found some interesting pieces at gypsy lore society that I really want to look into at later date:
Notice the first here mentions knife fighting culture:
Kircherized Knowledge and "The Egyptian Question"
David "Jim" Nemeth, University of Toledo
"The Egyptian Question" can be distinguished from "The Egyptian Problem." Curiosity gives rise to both, but curiosity about Gypsies once "problematized" demands action that usually poses a threat to Gypsies. "Problems" by definition exist to be solved. Scientific problem solving is a systematic process that by design produces a win/lose outcome. Problem Gypsies in this scenario are destined to lose. For humanitarian reasons, Gypsy scholars should attempt to explore alternatives to a problem solving approach in Gypsy studies that can satisfy the curiosity of outsiders yet does not threaten Gypsies. Gypsy "problems" might, for example, be resolved, absolved or dissolved rather than solved. My presentation focuses on a way to dissolve "The Egyptian Problem." It promotes a "Kircherized Knowledge" approach to Gypsy studies in place of the familiar "Tree of Knowledge" approach. Kircherized knowledge relates anything (as contrasted to everything) about Gypsies that can be connected into a robust and enjoyable roundtable discussion that goes nowhere. "The Egyptian Question," in contrast to "The Egyptian Problem," is an enriching conversation in and for itself. Truth seeking about Gypsies is not required in order to participate in this conversation. Kircherized knowledge about Gypsies flows rather than advances, and is inchoate, yet interesting. My example of a Kircherized conversation begins with a photograph of "Mr. and Mrs. Gypsy Joe," a wrestling act in the early 1950s. I still don't know if they were Gypsies, but I know that some Rom Gypsies were great fans of "The Joes," and that 25 years later they were still almost exclusively watching wrestling (along with roller derby and cartoons) on their television set. They considered most other television programs dirty (soap operas) or boring (news). When they weren't watching television or working, they were playing instruments, dancing and singing. The songs were often dated American pop songs that related to the Gypsy motif (for example "Golden Earrings," "Cabbages and Kings," "The Song of the Wild Goose"). Other songs were heavily censored or completely avoided depending on Rom Gypsy standards of morality (I learned of this the hard way!). My Kircherized conversation flows on into what Professor Ian Hancock disdains as the "supposed Romani penchant for using knives to settle matters," where I fix momentarily on the provenance of the navaja, or "Gypsy fighting knife," in and around the Iberian Peninsula. I conclude this example with a brief anecdote about surreal circumstances surrounding my own impendent knife fight with the virtual Gypsy leader of an exclusive Yahoo! message group, leading to my expulsion from his cozy Internet campsite.
The second mentions briefly about migration from the indian subcontinent to the middle east and europe, while exploring crime and gypsies:
Gypsies, Teens and Thieves: The Societal Reaction to Crime
Nadine Blumer, University of Toronto Ontario
From "gypping" someone out of their money, referring to a life of vagrancy and laziness, admonishment for being unhygienic and germ infested, warnings of having your babies or children stolen, to admiration for musical flair, fanciful styles and a romantic life of wandering, the standard image of the Gypsy is couched in stereotype, contradiction and appears to be a caricature of all that modern-day industrialized societies reject as immoral and inefficient. However evidence of intolerance and rejection of Gypsies dates back to their first migrations out of the Indian subcontinent more than 1000 years ago into the Middle East and eventually Europe (Lewy, 1999). Who are the Gypsies and why do these images of crime, deviancy and exoticism exist and persist? In this paper I explore the social construction of crime and how this translates into repercussions for those commonly viewed as the source of trouble. I outline the historical perception of Gypsy culture as criminal and deviant and suggest that this labeling may be indicative of more general and widespread fears present in any mainstream society. Many of the explanations attributable to negative views of Gypsies are not particular to Gypsy lifestyle alone. Popular conceptions of Gypsy culture that incite so much fear and mistrust vis-à-vis this population can be carried over to other "suspect" populations as well. The common practice of linking adolescents to activities of ill repute and criminality is a case in point. The similarities are striking when considering the labeling of deviant behavior to which both Gypsy and youth cultures have been historically subjected. This suggests that societal reactions to crime may have more to do with those doing the labeling, than with those being labeled. As such these reactions may not necessarily be reflective of the particularities of a targeted group's distinctive culture, behavior or attitude and thus, not always based in objective meanings of crime and deviance.
from:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/conf03abst.html
I believe the knife was probably part of the traveling gypsies arsenal at some point and maybe the use of it was lessened or grew extinct over time or was just kept as inside knowledge passed within families or groups. We know the spanish, italian and other gypsies knew of the knife and used it for self protection.
Found some interesting pieces at gypsy lore society that I really want to look into at later date:
Notice the first here mentions knife fighting culture:
Kircherized Knowledge and "The Egyptian Question"
David "Jim" Nemeth, University of Toledo
"The Egyptian Question" can be distinguished from "The Egyptian Problem." Curiosity gives rise to both, but curiosity about Gypsies once "problematized" demands action that usually poses a threat to Gypsies. "Problems" by definition exist to be solved. Scientific problem solving is a systematic process that by design produces a win/lose outcome. Problem Gypsies in this scenario are destined to lose. For humanitarian reasons, Gypsy scholars should attempt to explore alternatives to a problem solving approach in Gypsy studies that can satisfy the curiosity of outsiders yet does not threaten Gypsies. Gypsy "problems" might, for example, be resolved, absolved or dissolved rather than solved. My presentation focuses on a way to dissolve "The Egyptian Problem." It promotes a "Kircherized Knowledge" approach to Gypsy studies in place of the familiar "Tree of Knowledge" approach. Kircherized knowledge relates anything (as contrasted to everything) about Gypsies that can be connected into a robust and enjoyable roundtable discussion that goes nowhere. "The Egyptian Question," in contrast to "The Egyptian Problem," is an enriching conversation in and for itself. Truth seeking about Gypsies is not required in order to participate in this conversation. Kircherized knowledge about Gypsies flows rather than advances, and is inchoate, yet interesting. My example of a Kircherized conversation begins with a photograph of "Mr. and Mrs. Gypsy Joe," a wrestling act in the early 1950s. I still don't know if they were Gypsies, but I know that some Rom Gypsies were great fans of "The Joes," and that 25 years later they were still almost exclusively watching wrestling (along with roller derby and cartoons) on their television set. They considered most other television programs dirty (soap operas) or boring (news). When they weren't watching television or working, they were playing instruments, dancing and singing. The songs were often dated American pop songs that related to the Gypsy motif (for example "Golden Earrings," "Cabbages and Kings," "The Song of the Wild Goose"). Other songs were heavily censored or completely avoided depending on Rom Gypsy standards of morality (I learned of this the hard way!). My Kircherized conversation flows on into what Professor Ian Hancock disdains as the "supposed Romani penchant for using knives to settle matters," where I fix momentarily on the provenance of the navaja, or "Gypsy fighting knife," in and around the Iberian Peninsula. I conclude this example with a brief anecdote about surreal circumstances surrounding my own impendent knife fight with the virtual Gypsy leader of an exclusive Yahoo! message group, leading to my expulsion from his cozy Internet campsite.
The second mentions briefly about migration from the indian subcontinent to the middle east and europe, while exploring crime and gypsies:
Gypsies, Teens and Thieves: The Societal Reaction to Crime
Nadine Blumer, University of Toronto Ontario
From "gypping" someone out of their money, referring to a life of vagrancy and laziness, admonishment for being unhygienic and germ infested, warnings of having your babies or children stolen, to admiration for musical flair, fanciful styles and a romantic life of wandering, the standard image of the Gypsy is couched in stereotype, contradiction and appears to be a caricature of all that modern-day industrialized societies reject as immoral and inefficient. However evidence of intolerance and rejection of Gypsies dates back to their first migrations out of the Indian subcontinent more than 1000 years ago into the Middle East and eventually Europe (Lewy, 1999). Who are the Gypsies and why do these images of crime, deviancy and exoticism exist and persist? In this paper I explore the social construction of crime and how this translates into repercussions for those commonly viewed as the source of trouble. I outline the historical perception of Gypsy culture as criminal and deviant and suggest that this labeling may be indicative of more general and widespread fears present in any mainstream society. Many of the explanations attributable to negative views of Gypsies are not particular to Gypsy lifestyle alone. Popular conceptions of Gypsy culture that incite so much fear and mistrust vis-à-vis this population can be carried over to other "suspect" populations as well. The common practice of linking adolescents to activities of ill repute and criminality is a case in point. The similarities are striking when considering the labeling of deviant behavior to which both Gypsy and youth cultures have been historically subjected. This suggests that societal reactions to crime may have more to do with those doing the labeling, than with those being labeled. As such these reactions may not necessarily be reflective of the particularities of a targeted group's distinctive culture, behavior or attitude and thus, not always based in objective meanings of crime and deviance.
from:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/conf03abst.html
Thanks for sharing this information.
I heard about knife duels, they were very very common in Italy especially among gangsters of the past.
Nowadays it is only the older who still have that knowledge, and it's transmitted very informally and without the instructor-student thing.
The navaja was introduced in Neaples by the Spanish and it became the weapon of the early organized crime or duels of honour, they made them thinner in order to hide them better inside clothes.
The link with India is very interesting.
I heard about knife duels, they were very very common in Italy especially among gangsters of the past.
Nowadays it is only the older who still have that knowledge, and it's transmitted very informally and without the instructor-student thing.
The navaja was introduced in Neaples by the Spanish and it became the weapon of the early organized crime or duels of honour, they made them thinner in order to hide them better inside clothes.
The link with India is very interesting.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
During my travels in India, I met one man who had a very interesting skill with a handkerchief. He would use it every now and then almost in a martial pattern. I asked if he knew how to use it and i demonstrated some rope techniques and asked if he could use it a similar manner. He just said no.
The Old Thugees or thugs were a criminal underclass thought to be a cult that were like gypsy travelers that trailed, robbed and murdered fellow travelers often by strangulation. They were supposedly wiped out by the British in the 1800s.
They were reported to be adept at strangling their prey, " As quick as thought the cloth was round his neck; I seemed endued with superhuman strength. I wrenched his neck round-he struggled convulsively for an instant, and fell. I did not quit my hold, i knelt down on him, and strained the cloth till my hand ached; but he moved not- he was dead! I quitted my hold, and started to my feet. I was my blood boiled, and I felt as though I could have strangled a hundred others, so easy, so simple had the reality been. One turn of my wrists had placed me on an equality with those who had followed
the profession for years-I had taken the first place in the enterprise, for I had killed the principal victim!"
Could have been my active imagination as well reading into something that was not there as well. Interesting to note at this time in Varanasi, I found out that several foreign tourists were killed. Tourists would take boat rides down the ganges and they would be killed, robbed and their stripped bodies dumped into the ganges or burnt in the pyres. It was not a well known fact because they brought in "tourist police" to monitor the boats and certain areas and they interrogated any foreigner traveling with an indian person heading down the ganges. The police quickly brought a stop to the rash of killings but it was still unsettling.
Obviously on the boat they were executing some sort of "quick kill" with a knife and a rope, etc then discarding the bodies. The police didnt want the information to get out because high tourist season was coming and news of this type of thing would certainly have dampened that.
One week into the trip, one night late, a pack of wild teens rushed me and grabbed at my waist strap which had a small pack on it. He tried to pull it free but i was armed with a heavy maglite and three knives. I just locked in his hand and busted his nose open with the maglite, and put him down pretty bad. The pack scattered while I pinned the kid down in a hold. Within seconds, tourist police with guns and lathi sticks, had whipped down the rest of the pack and carted away the main culprit. They literally beat the hell out of them right there on the street as they were pulling them down the street.
Made friends with the local police and got some free lathi lessons later in the week.
Such is life in india. In one of the holiest of all places on the sacred Ganges, the undercurrent of violence still exists as it has for centuries.
The Old Thugees or thugs were a criminal underclass thought to be a cult that were like gypsy travelers that trailed, robbed and murdered fellow travelers often by strangulation. They were supposedly wiped out by the British in the 1800s.
They were reported to be adept at strangling their prey, " As quick as thought the cloth was round his neck; I seemed endued with superhuman strength. I wrenched his neck round-he struggled convulsively for an instant, and fell. I did not quit my hold, i knelt down on him, and strained the cloth till my hand ached; but he moved not- he was dead! I quitted my hold, and started to my feet. I was my blood boiled, and I felt as though I could have strangled a hundred others, so easy, so simple had the reality been. One turn of my wrists had placed me on an equality with those who had followed
the profession for years-I had taken the first place in the enterprise, for I had killed the principal victim!"
Could have been my active imagination as well reading into something that was not there as well. Interesting to note at this time in Varanasi, I found out that several foreign tourists were killed. Tourists would take boat rides down the ganges and they would be killed, robbed and their stripped bodies dumped into the ganges or burnt in the pyres. It was not a well known fact because they brought in "tourist police" to monitor the boats and certain areas and they interrogated any foreigner traveling with an indian person heading down the ganges. The police quickly brought a stop to the rash of killings but it was still unsettling.
Obviously on the boat they were executing some sort of "quick kill" with a knife and a rope, etc then discarding the bodies. The police didnt want the information to get out because high tourist season was coming and news of this type of thing would certainly have dampened that.
One week into the trip, one night late, a pack of wild teens rushed me and grabbed at my waist strap which had a small pack on it. He tried to pull it free but i was armed with a heavy maglite and three knives. I just locked in his hand and busted his nose open with the maglite, and put him down pretty bad. The pack scattered while I pinned the kid down in a hold. Within seconds, tourist police with guns and lathi sticks, had whipped down the rest of the pack and carted away the main culprit. They literally beat the hell out of them right there on the street as they were pulling them down the street.
Made friends with the local police and got some free lathi lessons later in the week.
Such is life in india. In one of the holiest of all places on the sacred Ganges, the undercurrent of violence still exists as it has for centuries.
Dangerous indeed, or you wouldn't have carried three knives.
What surprised me a bit was how fast the police intervened and caught them. It's cool they taught you things, I like exchanging techniques in a friendly and relaxed way.
The Indian authorities did a good job in covering that information, I never heard of such a vast number of foreigners being robbed and killed in India.
What you say about the thugs brought back old memories. There was a very famous writer in Italy, Emilio Salgari (the one who started spaghetti westerns, by the way) who wrote novels set in India.
What I remember clearly is that he mentioned these Thugs. They were described as fast and silent assassins who killed in the way you described, either by strangling with a cloth or stabbing with a kriss. Plus they wore a turban, which is typical of some gipsies.
Too many similarities with your description, and I am quite sure the writer's description of the thugs came from his research since he was very interested in commerce with eastern lands and involved in that to some little extent as he studied in the navy to sail for those lands but never made it there.
What surprised me a bit was how fast the police intervened and caught them. It's cool they taught you things, I like exchanging techniques in a friendly and relaxed way.
The Indian authorities did a good job in covering that information, I never heard of such a vast number of foreigners being robbed and killed in India.
What you say about the thugs brought back old memories. There was a very famous writer in Italy, Emilio Salgari (the one who started spaghetti westerns, by the way) who wrote novels set in India.
What I remember clearly is that he mentioned these Thugs. They were described as fast and silent assassins who killed in the way you described, either by strangling with a cloth or stabbing with a kriss. Plus they wore a turban, which is typical of some gipsies.
Too many similarities with your description, and I am quite sure the writer's description of the thugs came from his research since he was very interested in commerce with eastern lands and involved in that to some little extent as he studied in the navy to sail for those lands but never made it there.
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Hi fede,
I usually carry a weapon in whatever country i go, the maglite as well is a tremendous weapon, capable of some serious damage.
The police were monitoring the whole area, so any sign of commotion they were there. Also at the head and tail of every major sort of street they were stationed. When i back in subsequent years, that was no longer in place, it was just during this one period when I was there.
The police carried rifles so it was lathi and rifles during this time. My read of the situation was there were probably more people killed than they admitted. If tourists went missing and no body found it would time to filter it back to them.
There are several very well written books on Thugs which I always found fascinating. I even watched one of the old film stranglers of bombay the other night!
I usually carry a weapon in whatever country i go, the maglite as well is a tremendous weapon, capable of some serious damage.
The police were monitoring the whole area, so any sign of commotion they were there. Also at the head and tail of every major sort of street they were stationed. When i back in subsequent years, that was no longer in place, it was just during this one period when I was there.
The police carried rifles so it was lathi and rifles during this time. My read of the situation was there were probably more people killed than they admitted. If tourists went missing and no body found it would time to filter it back to them.
There are several very well written books on Thugs which I always found fascinating. I even watched one of the old film stranglers of bombay the other night!
OP
destructautomaton
Green Belt
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My father traveled through India way back but told me a lot of similar stories also there is much poverty and that contributes to violence a lot of times. i am sure the bare knuckle battles were pretty vicious. i am also very interesting in reading some of the writing on the gypsies which sounds pretty fascinating
blackdiamondcobra
Purple Belt
Each person has their own journey as you said and their own experiences. I dont go there or anywhere just as a tourist. I go to each place and try to actually live there and go wherever i want. You sometimes have to get beneath the veneer to really understand the culture and live with people and experience a bit of their lives. Most people just float along the surface and thats their experience that defines the place.
I hold nothing against india or indian people or any culture, poverty and desperation leads people to do things that are often unthinkable for what they believe will be their survival. I enjoy India and go back whenever i can because i people i usually live and train are nothing short of amazing.
I hold nothing against india or indian people or any culture, poverty and desperation leads people to do things that are often unthinkable for what they believe will be their survival. I enjoy India and go back whenever i can because i people i usually live and train are nothing short of amazing.
OP
destructautomaton
Green Belt
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Its wonderful all the journeys you describe and the info and training you bring back hopefully all these systems will not die out---
