Incoming punch - counter with block - inside or outside?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by lianxi, May 15, 2018.

  1. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Block to the inside or the outside?

    Yes.

    Blocking to the inside has a lot of advantages; you will be on the outside, limiting their ability to throw another punch or kick being on of the biggest. But it can limit your options on where and how to attack.

    Blocking to the outside means you're inside; odds are that many of their centerline targets will be more available. But... you're in position to eat their next punch or kick, too...

    So, which is better? Neither. Where am I in relation to them? How did I react to their strike? Am I simply trying to escape -- or destroy them? These are some of the questions that would shape my preference of the moment...
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Some people make the mistake of passing up opportunities just because they want to block or punch a certain way. If a person sees that his or her opponent really wants to block "outside-in," then that person will do whatever possible to prvent the opportunity to block that way. Some people will give up 20 opportunities for the sake of having only one.
     
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  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This is very common. In fighting, you

    - want to use your most powerful weapon.
    - don't want to use your weak weapon.

    If your right punch has knocked down people before but your left hand has not, you may give up your left hand knock down opportunity and try to create your right hand knock down opportunity.
     
  4. lianxi

    lianxi Yellow Belt

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    Thanks gpseymour. More good reasoning here - you can block them in if you're not going to be there! When I originally asked this question yesterday, it was because of reading an analysis of an mma fight - ie - the practicality of what to do with an incoming straight punch in a real fighting situation. All of this has made me realize that I've spent the past 32 years mastering the 'art' of martial arts, which at 64 has helped me develop strong chi, balance, proprioception, range of motion and more (I practice solo) - but however artistic and graceful I might be, I'm unprepared for real fighting. This is what I've learned here on this forum already! - thanks guys.
     
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  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Countering inside vs outside depends on a lot of factors, as mentioned previously.

    My very general rule of thumb is I counter straight punches (jab, cross) with an outside-in block. This pushes the punch past me and across the opponent’s body. It opens up targets that the opponent can’t defend very well, gets me off-line, and makes it harder for the opponent to keep punching. This is my ideal place to be - I can hit him easily, he can’t hit me.

    I block circular punches like a hook with an inside-out block. The punch is pushed away from the attacker’s body. He’s still squared up in front of me and has his other hand and both feet to counter. It’s the least ideal place for me to be. However, blocking a hook punch like this requires less movement and time; to block it the other way, I’d have to slip/duck/and or back up. Basically, I’d have to let the punch go past me.

    Sparring “blocks” shouldn’t be those exaggerated “textbook” 2 hands winding up and one hand going to chamber blocks. They should be quick, more of a hook block.

    And I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal. I like deflect/parry more.

    Last thought - the actual block where the arm meets the opponent’s arm is the smallest part of it all. The main part is the footwork and torso and head movement. Get all those right, and you don’t even have to actually make contact. The contact you make will just move the punch further away, creating a bigger target and/or off-balancing the opponent.

    All this applies to kicks too. Straight kicks like front and side kick, and circular kicks like roundhouse and crescent kicks.

    Very last thought for now...

    Get Joko Ninomiya’s Sabaki Method: Karate in the Inner Cirlce. It’s great at explaining the why and how to use blocks and movement to get to an advantageous position.
     
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  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This is the most honest self reflection and acceptance that I've heard in a while. The reason is that many martial arts practioners would find it difficult to say something like that .

    The good news is that this realization is the start of a great journey. At least for me it was.
     
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  7. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    being the token Uechi guy here......your understanding of the Uechi wa uke is incorrect. a Uechi circle block utilizes both hands. the first hand , called the "top hand" is a push inward block as you described here...
    then the second hand circles from underneath making that wax on wax off type of motion.
    the end result is you use the same hand actions to either open the person up exposing the chest and vitals or you close the person down with you off the center line shutting down their line of force and attack. being on the outside allows you to "take the persons back" and it is a safer position but your return on vital targets not as good. if you open them up the return for vital strikes is higher but its not as safe a position because you have to deal with the continuous line of power and more attacks.
     
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  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Good enough. You can also do a simultaneous punch to his lower ribs, or kidney if he lunges, far enough. You can also continue you rotation around so you are back to back, squatting as you do, reach up and around with both hands to under his chin and throw him over your shoulder. Your opponent will never look at a jab the same way again.

    Another technique is to step in and to your right, grabbing his striking arm with both your hands. You come close to his body, rotating counter-clockwise (assuming a defense against a right jab) and throw him over your hip or shoulder as opportunity best presents itself. Two things make this work. As you are stepping quickly into his body, even if he manages to strike with his left hand, his strike will have little strength. Very importantly, you are not encircling his striking arm. You are grabbing skin and/or muscle of the upper forearm and the upper arm, as hard as you can grip (we practice grips 50 to 100 or even more at each warm up). Done correctly that is quite painful and directs most of you opponent's attention to what is going wrong with his upper arm and upper-forearm, and some on how did you get where you are, and why is the world upside down. That move is a little hard to describe, but when demonstrated, seems much simpler.
     
  9. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I somehow read “uechi” as in uechi ryu, as “uchi” as in uche-uke (inside-out block). Uechi Ryu blocks are different than the mainstream Japanese karate blocks.

    Working out with the Uechi Ryu guys in Pittsfield, MA (we talked about a while back) showed me how much different Uechi Ryu is than the norm. I loved Uechi Ryu. But I think it’s quite easy to butcher the application of Uechi stuff. Mainstream Japanese/Okinawan stuff gets butchered often enough, but Uechi stuff seems far easier to mimic yet far harder to fully understand. In a good way.
     
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  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    @lianxi
    So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study? It would help people better explain specifics about your style.
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    1. block
    2. deflect/parry
    3. deflect/parry + grab + pull

    IMO, 3 > 2 > 1
     
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  12. lianxi

    lianxi Yellow Belt

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    @lianxi
    So everyone’s on the same page, what style karate do you study? It would help people better explain specifics about your style.

    JR137 - I began with uechi ryu and hayashi ha shito ryu, nearly 30 yrs ago and each for less than a year. I studied the zen martial art of shim gum do for many years and still practice its 20 forms - (shin beop - empty hand- a bit like tkd). Due to its creator, it's more about zen mind-body training than fighting efficacy - it's largely unknown and unrecognized, if not entirely dismissed in the martial arts world, but unique and brilliant in how it links movements, and uses gravity and momentum. I practice solo (barefoot) and my practice also includes chi kung and baguazhang's circle walking. So, this is what I mean about not really being a fighter, despite practicing martial arts seriously for over 30 yrs. I'm afraid I'm exactly what Bruce Lee railed against - someone who practices and enjoys forms and choreography - which can freeze you into patterns and aren't going to make you a good, spontaneous fighter. I'm not apologizing, because I make progress every day in the way of proprioception, balance, intention, range of motion and coordination - I'm 64 and feel like I'm 20. I still believe martial arts are about fighting first and foremost, I'm just 'cursed' with a compassionate nature! For ex - I enjoy the UFC fights regularly, both male and female, because at its best it's a real match between the fighters' styles and spirits. But I hate many aspects of it, such as ground and pound - there's no art to that for me - it's just not who I am. Still, I'm fascinated by mechanics and by what works which is why I asked my original question and learned so much from the answers here.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you block your opponent's arm from

    - outside in, you can push his elbow joint and pull his wrist joint and apply pressure on his arm.
    - inside out, you don't have that advantage.
     
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  14. wab25

    wab25 Green Belt

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    No, for inside out, you have a different advantage. If you block his right forearm from the inside, with your left forearm... you can move it away from you and down. If you catch his right elbow with your right forearm and pull it towards you and up at the same time... either he gets both his feet in the air for a high back fall or a lot more range of motion in his shoulder... for a short period of time.

    Blocking to the outside verses the inside is not as black and white as you are making it. One is not better than the other. Sure there are different opportunities and different dangers to each. Assuming you understand both sides, use the one that is appropriate for the situation. If you don't understand one side, go learn about it. Trying to force your favorite technique into a situation it does not belong in, will bite you sometime.
     
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  15. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    That may or may not be true. I would not automatically write you off. It depends.

    Solo training is very valuable, and you can develop useful skills in that way. You likely will not be as confident with those skills if you have not done much interactive training along the way. But those skills might still be there underneath it all.

    I suspect that it would not take a whole lot of interactive training, if done with the right people, to polish those skills into a more useable understanding and build that confidence. Perhaps not to be a champion MMA competitor, but that is not the yardstick against which all things must be measured, in spite of what some people will claim. At any rate, at a level to be able to trust in your skills in the unlikely event you might need to defend yourself against an unruly fellow someday.
     
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  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    For what it’s worth, I believe Bruce Lee was wrong.
     
  17. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Love this post. Good for you, bro.
     
  18. lianxi

    lianxi Yellow Belt

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    Thanks guys - feel at home here and really getting benefit from the many different perspectives. I guess that's the real treasure of martial arts - there are so many aspects. I've come to love practicing solo for the freedom of it but I'm thinking now that I need to add some sparring and interaction with another person - it's been too long and I'm missing that important dimension.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  19. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Is this a Chinese cultural thing?
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This kind of thinking has existed in Chinese wrestling (not sure about other CMA) for thousands years. The Chinese wrestling is popular in the Chinese Muslim. So this may be the Chinese Muslim cultural thing.

    If you take me down with a foot sweep, I may say that you are lucky. But if you use hip throw to throw me over your back, I will admit that you have defeated me.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM

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