In order for something to work...?

[drop bear]

Chokes are not dangerous, at least not the BJJ kind. Instead they are effective and will knock you out but in no way dangerous.

If anything should be done to not harm your opponent chokes would be my best bet. Saying otherwise and I have to ask, have you been choked out? I think many BJJ artists have had that experience as part of some ritual or other. None of them died.

Oh and not all submissions will cripple an opponent if continued. Some like chokes will not have that crippling effect so while they are in some cases the same to some extent, it is far from always.

It is considered a massive no no in self defence circles as it is an escalation of force.

 

[Phobius]

That is just silly, it is not an escalation of force to have someone passed out. Violence ends at that point.

EDIT: Not saying you are silly, but that those considering a choke to be an escalation. It is a deescalation of an escalated situation. All violence ends at that point because the attacker is passed out. You just stand up and call the cops or walk away.

 

[Hanzou]

Ryan Hall choked out a guy on video and came out just fine.

 

[drop bear]

That is just silly, it is not an escalation of force to have someone passed out. Violence ends at that point.

EDIT: Not saying you are silly, but that those considering a choke to be an escalation. It is a deescalation of an escalated situation. All violence ends at that point because the attacker is passed out. You just stand up and call the cops or walk away.

OK. This is the foce continuum.

Rear naked chokes are seen as right at the top of that.

 

[Phobius]

Rear naked chokes are seen as right at the top of that.

If an officer is at the scene of course you let go and turn a person over to them, but this is self defense we are discussing. A choke is as harmless as they come. Any other means of fighting are quite a bit more lethal, granted you do not move past a choke and over to pure strangling, which is not a choke in any way.

Force continuum is about resisting an arrest from an officer. That was not something anyone was discussing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is considered a massive no no in self defence circles as it is an escalation of force.

If by "in self defence circles" you mean those who teach it, I'd have to argue that point. I've been around a lot of folks who teach self-defense, and have never heard anyone suggest that chokes are a bad idea, though there are some who do not seem to teach them. We do differentiate between blood chokes (what Hanzou and others are referring to) and airway chokes (what someone referred to as "strangling"), and the fact that one can be done with little risk, but the other may be permanent.

I teach chokes (both kinds) and how to defend against them.

 

[DaveB]

The SD specialists I've known have taught chokes, but the issue isn't how controlled an attack you think it is, but how dangerous a jury believes it is. Once you start cutting off oxygen to the brain it's only your word that your intent was not to kill.

 

[Jenna]

There has been quite a bit discussed here from self-defense to sport applications.

The thing to remember is that self-defense is different than martial arts. While martial arts in the typical sense offer numerous benefits, realistic self-defense isn't always one of them. Even when self-defense is emphasized within an art it generally requires months to years to effectively develop an appropriate skill level for use in real situations. Having said that, it's important to note that many times potentially violent situations can be dealt with in a non-physical manner. This includes mind-set, awareness, escape, and de-escalation among other things. These are things that are often neglected in traditional and semi-traditional martial arts. Another thing often neglected in martial arts, as mentioned by Paul_D, is the adrenal response. Regardless of what we think we will do or how we train, if it doesn't take the adrenal response into consideration there is often a low rate of success for many of these techniques, tactics, and strategies. An adrenal response is something that we all experience. While the degree of intensity may vary from person to person due to numerous factors (including proper training) it unfortunately is not something that we can eliminate or ignore in our training. And until those preferred techniques are actually trained through the adrenal state, the likelihood of them working as intended is pretty low.

The discussion of control holds, locks, and chokes is pretty interesting. However, the question to ask is whether or not these skills would actually be applicable in the majority of "self-defense" situations. Remember, I previously mentioned awareness, escape, and de-escalation. These are things that generally should be tried prior to resorting to physical skills, unless the level of threat demands an immediate physical response (cornered or trapped by the assailant or ambushed). That being the case, what kind of legitimate situation would require the use of locks or control holds? If the intended victim believes that the level of threat is not high enough to warrant a high level response then obviously he/she could use more appropriate options such as de-escalation. Also, while a choke hold can be an appropriate response for a high level threat, especially a lethal threat but it's obviously not something that should be used for threats that could be effectively dealt with in a non-physical manner. Anytime force is used on the neck and throat it can be considered use of lethal force. It's also not a technique I would teach haphazardly under the heading of "self-defense".

While I understand the reluctance by some to use the term "brutal" it does make sense from a mind-set perspective. That said, I have used the term "savagely" to assist students in understanding the appropriate mind-set for dealing with explosive violence. The term used is not as important as the mind-set it should convey.

Steve

Steve, these terms you call to bear with your students: "brutal" or "savagely", to convey in their minds a way of defending, these two words to me depict to me a loss of control. I want to ask can you explain for me please how defending my self or deploying techniques in a brutal or savage way would amplify my defence or assist in my safety in that situation? Thank you

 

[Hanzou]

The SD specialists I've known have taught chokes, but the issue isn't how controlled an attack you think it is, but how dangerous a jury believes it is. Once you start cutting off oxygen to the brain it's only your word that your intent was not to kill.

I seriously doubt a woman for example is going to prison for triangle choking some creep who attempted to rape her.

 

[drop bear]

I seriously doubt a woman for example is going to prison for triangle choking some creep who attempted to rape her.

I doubt she would go to prison if she killed him.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The SD specialists I've known have taught chokes, but the issue isn't how controlled an attack you think it is, but how dangerous a jury believes it is. Once you start cutting off oxygen to the brain it's only your word that your intent was not to kill.

Yes. This is one of the realities we discuss in our program. There's a difference between surviving the moment and surviving the situation. Surviving the moment can allow for any response that keeps you alive. Surviving the situation means (when possible) avoiding responses that have a higher likelihood of putting you in jail.

"I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is valid. Better yet to avoid both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I seriously doubt a woman for example is going to prison for triangle choking some creep who attempted to rape her.

Possibly not. But a guy might go to jail for doing the same to a guy who attacked him in a bar.

 

[Hanzou]

Possibly not. But a guy might go to jail for doing the same to a guy who attacked him in a bar.

If the guy is on top of him trying to turn his face into hamburger, the guy on the bottom attempting the choke should take his chances. Especially if he's on concrete or a similar surface.

Outside of talking your way out of something, a defensive choke is the most humane way of ending a physical altercation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the guy is on top of him trying to turn his face into hamburger, the guy on the bottom attempting the choke should take his chances. Especially if he's on concrete or a similar surface.

Outside of talking your way out of something, a defensive choke is the most humane way of ending a physical altercation.

Oh, I agree entirely. There's a point where you have to do whatever you have to do, especially when survival is potentially on the line. And yes, the choke can be the most humane way out. We just can't count on a jury to see it that way; they've watched too many movies where something that looks like that so easily breaks a guy's neck.

 

[Phobius]

Oh, I agree entirely. There's a point where you have to do whatever you have to do, especially when survival is potentially on the line. And yes, the choke can be the most humane way out. We just can't count on a jury to see it that way; they've watched too many movies where something that looks like that so easily breaks a guy's neck.

Not all countries have jury members. So that means this topic needs to be discussed separately for each country of origin.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, I agree entirely. There's a point where you have to do whatever you have to do, especially when survival is potentially on the line. And yes, the choke can be the most humane way out. We just can't count on a jury to see it that way; they've watched too many movies where something that looks like that so easily breaks a guy's neck.

Not every choke resembles an RNC from behind a standing assailant though. For example, most people have no idea what a Triangle Choke looks like, and that particular choke would be applied from a clearly defensive position. Thus in front of a jury, it's pretty hard to be pinned as the aggressor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not all countries have jury members. So that means this topic needs to be discussed separately for each country of origin.

Good point. I can only speak to the US justice system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not every choke resembles an RNC from behind a standing assailant though. For example, most people have no idea what a Triangle Choke looks like, and that particular choke would be applied from a clearly defensive position. Thus in front of a jury, it's pretty hard to be pinned as the aggressor.

Quite true. This would be almost entirely the purview of arts with significant groundwork (like BJJ), since one must stay under the assailant to do it. Most won't spend enough time on the ground during practice to work on those types of chokes.

Mind you, it's a great solution if that's where you happen to be - nobody will choose that position, but any of us can potentially end up there.

An aside, Hanzou - remind me which BJJ style you train in. Are you training GJJ?

 

[Hanzou]

Quite true. This would be almost entirely the purview of arts with significant groundwork (like BJJ), since one must stay under the assailant to do it. Most won't spend enough time on the ground during practice to work on those types of chokes.

Mind you, it's a great solution if that's where you happen to be - nobody will choose that position, but any of us can potentially end up there.

Yes, its probably one of the most practical chokes around, relatively easy to set up, and its very good to establish a fairly dominant position from the bottom. If you can't get the choke you can go for arm bars, wrist locks, sweeps, etc. from the initial set up. It's quite amazing to me that more martial arts don't incorporate it.

An aside, Hanzou - remind me which BJJ style you train in. Are you training GJJ?

Yeah, Relson Gracie JJ currently. I've also trained under a Rickson Gracie brown belt for a time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, its probably one of the most practical chokes around, relatively easy to set up, and its very good to establish a fairly dominant position from the bottom. If you can't get the choke you can go for arm bars, wrist locks, sweeps, etc. from the initial set up. It's quite amazing to me that more martial arts don't incorporate it.



Yeah, Relson Gracie JJ currently. I've also trained under a Rickson Gracie brown belt for a time.

How much of the chokes show up in the Combatives (first 36, as I recall)? I need a refresher on ground work (to get back to responses beyond escape), and was thinking of going through the combatives if my legs will let me.