Importantance of Head Movement

[drop bear]

Actually it doesn't just work for me. It's the only way the long fist techniques of Jow Ga can work. The bobbing and weaving actually takes me out of the structure that's needed to throw the big punches, sweeps, and elbow strikes. Some systems simply don't have the structure that would work well with the boxer's head movement, the one I study just happens to be that way.

Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?

 

[_Simon_]

Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?

How CAN it??



(Sorry.... I really couldn't help it XD)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?

I'm saying the way that boxers head move movement doesn't work for Jow Ga which is a long fist technique. The structure that is created with the bobbing (leaning back, leaning to the side, ducking while leaning forward." doesn't work well with the structure that's needed to throw long fist techniques. Long fist techniques require a good rooting structure so your punches don't throw you off balance.

This is a basic punch Jow Ga Punch. Hung Ga, Choy Ga, Lama Pai, and Choy Li Fut have similar punches. Try to bob and weave like a boxer then follow up with this this punch. Then you will understand fully the problem that the movement causes. What you'll notice is that it takes longer to execute the technique. The way that these systems approach head movement is that the head movement is built into the strikes.

 

[Buka]

I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?

 

[Anarax]

Actually it doesn't just work for me. It's the only way the long fist techniques of Jow Ga can work.

That all depends on the practitioner and the "purity" of the system they wish to maintain or not. I have experience in Choy Li Fut and have incorporated head movement into sparring and application. It doesn't directly contradict any long fist principals that I'm aware of, nor was I unable to incorporate it into my Choy Li Fut.

The bobbing and weaving actually takes me out of the structure that's needed to throw the big punches, sweeps, and elbow strikes.

As I said with the more FMA./MA style of head movement, you don't need to break your structure for all head movement. Bending at the waist, moving without purpose and leaning forward are bad habits, proper head movement could be incorporated into many martial arts styles without issue.

Some systems simply don't have the structure that would work well with the boxer's head movement, the one I study just happens to be that way.

It's not the "boxer's head movement" I'm referring to, it's the martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated.

 

[Martial D]

The idea of wild swinging head movement in boxing is a bit of a red herring though isn't it? Most head movement in boxing is a matter of inches.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?

There would be no need use a boxer's head movement at the end of that technique. There are different follow up techniques to use that address what you are talking about. To choose head movement vs those techniques would be a missed opportunity. To be honest the boxer's head movement would be slower from this position.

If something came at the head he could simply untwist. Using that extended arm to address the incoming strike and follow up with a jab or thrust punch. Or if it's high enough to duck. He could simply shuffle forward and sink into a thrust punch. The sinking would be equivalent to ducking. Or the person can do the kneeling punch that is often seen in kung fu posses, or the person can do a sweep from that position. Each of the strikes that I mentioned would move the head out of danger.

If the opponent throws a jab to the head, then that lead arm that's extended is in position to interfere with the jab and at the same time launch a jab or a punch to the body at the same time you disrupt your opponent's jab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That all depends on the practitioner and the "purity" of the system they wish to maintain or not. I have experience in Choy Li Fut and have incorporated head movement into sparring and application. It doesn't directly contradict any long fist principals that I'm aware of, nor was I unable to incorporate it into my Choy Li Fut.

It's not the "boxer's head movement" I'm referring to, it's the martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated.

I responded before reading this. From what I understand from this statement you and I are talking about the same things. The martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated. YES. I use head movement in this context all the time.

The "boxer's head" movement was developed from the perspective of not using kicks and knees, and as such boxers are able to use head movements that move into zones that would otherwise be dangerous zones for kicking, kneeing, and sweeping. When I was speaking of head movment I was only referring to the head movement that boxers do and not head movement in general.

You and I have the same or similar perceptions of "boxer head movement" vs "Martial Arts Head movement"

 

[Buka]

I'm not referring to "boxing" head movement. Just moving one's head in general.
I mean, if you were riding a bike and suddenly saw a low tree branch in front of you that you hadn't seen, I think one would duck.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not referring to "boxing" head movement. Just moving one's head in general.
I mean, if you were riding a bike and suddenly saw a low tree branch in front of you that you hadn't seen, I think one would duck.

My reading is bad...today. I'm too quick with the keyboard. I agree with you.. moving one's head in general is good.

 

[jobo]

Sure, and if you

-deal with punches by trying to block them all and catch them with your arms you will probably take an unscheduled nap.

-keep your head offline and in motion you will retain your ability to eat solid food.

agreed, this is just the," blocking is useless" thread again ( before it,got dragged off course)

if your art consists of positions that don't,allow head movement or evasive foot movements, then a) don't get into fights, b) only get into fights with very,drunk people or c) take up an art that does

 

[TMA17]

Boxing head movements don’t have to and are often not that large of an area. I still think head movement is valuable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just a reference video: This is ducking for Jow Ga. (what the guy in black is doing). In Jow Ga, a duck is not supposed to be just a duck to avoid the punch. We follow the theory that 2 things can be done at the same time, in this case, ducking and striking. Normally I would be showing my own videos, but I'm no longer able to show my videos in public. The biggest danger of this technique is moving to the wrong side, which is what this guy has done. You don't want to move into your opponent's power side when doing this technique. You want to move in a way that forces your opponent to realign his or her footing. You want to use "split seconds" realigning instead of using "split seconds" to counter strike. it's like in boxing. Slip to the outside and not towards the power. Other than that it shows the basic technique.

 

[Anarax]

The "boxer's head" movement was developed from the perspective of not using kicks and knees, and as such boxers are able to use head movements that move into zones that would otherwise be dangerous zones for kicking, kneeing, and sweeping.

Western boxing was heavily influenced by Filipino Martial arts. Filipino Boxing(Panantukan/Suntukan) already had head movement that closely resembles the head movement you see in boxing today. However; Panantukan is a martial arts style or sub-style(depends on who you ask) that had to deal with the "dangerous zones" you're referring to. That's why head movement in Panantukan doesn't lean forward nor place their heads in dangerous positions for low attacks. The sport of boxing gradually started to adopt the low leaning head because the rules prohibit kneeing and kicking. Meaning the differences between the sport boxing head movement and the martial arts head movement are physically small but dynamically crucial.

 

[Danny T]

Head movement can be;
Just movement of the neck and head
Movement from the waist,
Movement from shifting the center of gravity
Movement from moving the feet and whole body.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Western boxing was heavily influenced by Filipino Martial arts. Filipino Boxing(Panantukan/Suntukan) already had head movement that closely resembles the head movement you see in boxing today. However; Panantukan is a martial arts style or sub-style(depends on who you ask) that had to deal with the "dangerous zones" you're referring to. That's why head movement in Panantukan doesn't lean forward nor place their heads in dangerous positions for low attacks. The sport of boxing gradually started to adopt the low leaning head because the rules prohibit kneeing and kicking. Meaning the differences between the sport boxing head movement and the martial arts head movement are physically small but dynamically crucial.

I had to look it up and I can see what you are saying about the 2 systems. I took a look at some of the basics and there was a lot of techniques that I was familiar with and it was interesting to see how those techniques were applied differently.

Looks like a fighting system I would enjoy.

 

[Buka]

Normally I would be showing my own videos, but I'm no longer able to show my videos in public.

Ruh rho, did we get you in trouble?

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?

Which is sort of what I was thinking.

 

[drop bear]

The idea of wild swinging head movement in boxing is a bit of a red herring though isn't it? Most head movement in boxing is a matter of inches.

Head off line is kind of the theory. I use the rocky creed quote in front of the mirror a bit for this.

Every time you punch there is one coming back.

Otherwise when your head moves your hips should follow so you are not hanging out there waiting to get popped.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ruh rho, did we get you in trouble?

Nah. it was a cultural issue. The Chinese don't have the same perspective of Martial Arts as westerners. When Chinese think martial arts, the first image that comes to their minds are thugs and zen. In other words, only thugs use martial arts to fight. Good people only use it for health. In the U.S. it's totally different. Good people use martial arts to fight, defend, and for health. Most people who are thugs in the U.S. don't take a martial arts.

Well longer story short, my display of martial arts usage went against the image that the of the organization wanted to show and how the Chinese Jow Ga associations want to show Jow Ga. This isn't a system wide view. Not all Jow Ga organizations are like this, just the one that I'm a part of.


I wasn't kicked out of the organization so that's always a good sign lol.