IMAF Schea site

[stick-i-bunz]

Please permit me to apologize for any underhanded comments regarding Mr. Hartman's weight, literacy, or other inconsiderate aspect not pertaining to the issue at hand made by myself in my previous post. I readily admit to my own hypocrisy in complaining about shameful displays and bickering while allowing myself to participate as well. My actions were extremely unprofessional, unappealing, and unjust in that regard. I will not claim my impulsiveness as an acceptable excuse.

However, I will stick to the gist of my post in asserting that finger-pointing of other organizations and unsighted demands does nothing to further the art of Modern Arnis in the way the Professor would have promoted. Backing, or bullying, any organization into a corner when they have repeatedly proved their desire to not participate in the crudeness of this forum is simply uncalled for.

As a note, I do not speak for, nor am I any longer associated with, any Modern Arnis organization, neither the IMAF, the IMAF Inc, MARRIPO, nor any other. I simply observe this forum to gain knowledge of possible organizations I might want to steer myself and TULANE UNIVERSITY to train with in the future. And I can tell you which organization I will not be promoting. As I stated previously, it is a shame that a foolish personality would be allowed to interfere with the training of an art.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Thank you very much for the apology. My goal for this forum is to steer it more toward the sharing of technical info, events and a more 'friendly' tone that has been prevalent in the past.

I agree. The finger pointing, bickering, etc does nothing to promote the art. If anything, it only turns off potential students.

I said it before...wouldn't it be nice if we could all just -train- together? Share what we know?

Regarding the issues raised, the questions can be answered, differed (I believe some previous ones were differed to Dr. Schea a while back), not answered (ignored, 'we wont reply to that in a public forum') etc. Thats up to the politicians. I'm just a geek.


:asian:

 

[Guro Harold]

I am a member of the IMAF, INC. I have signed my name and publically stated that I will not associate nor participate in any gathering that is negatively centered. I am not a member of WMAA.

However, regardless of the issues that Datu Hartman, his peers or contemporaries have to resolve, can we at least show a little respect to him and to each other?

Please note again that Sr. Master Dan Anderson, Datu Tim Hartman, Bram Frank (Master of Arms), and Master Ray Dionaldo, who also received some training with the Professor as well, all were representatives of the Filipino Martial Arts at the last Sokeship meeting Labor Day Weekend.

All were praised and received some type of honor or award. A gentleman by the name of Al Sardinas wrote in his Eskrima-Digest review: "I did not catch all of Datu Hartman's demo but for what I saw show simplicity and accuracy. BTW, Datu Hartman is very humble when I addressed him as Datu, he told me to just call him Tim." From my three previous occasions of meetings with Mr. Hartman, I can concur.

The point that I am making is that we all need each other to further the art of Modern Arnis. No one has the sole or complete system that the Professor had within his head or life. Right now instead of adhering to the concept that we should be friends and eat steak and lobster together, we are throwing those things at each other, plate included.

Please also give IMAF, INC a break, I am sure that in due time more information will be forthcoming regarding the website. I am definitely not an insider, but it appears to me that Dr. Shea is not a wreckless man who personally makes unsubstantiated claims.

Finally, let's train hard together!!! Its time for all of us to hear and smell hundreds burnt rattan sticks cracking in a gym as a tribute to GM Presas.

 

[Dieter]

Hi,

Tim is writing about claims that the IMAF inc. is making. But he does make claims himself.

1. The WMAA was the first to have a written curriculum (This was established back during the Can-Am Chapter days). This makes it easier for our members to train for grading. This is on the net for all to benefit from.

I started to write examination curriculums back in 1983. In 1985 my students and I founded the German Arnis Association (Deutscher Arnis Verband e.V., DAV), which since then is concerned in spreading Modern Arnis.

2. We have made an investment in our Black Belt diplomas. The WMAA has invested over $2000 to make our diplomas better than any Modern Arnis one that I have seen.

This is a matter of taste. For me it looks like cover of a fantasy novel and not like a martial arts certificate.

3. We are the first instructors only camp this October in the Philly area.

I started teaching seminars with brown/black belts only around 1986.
I started TEACHING Arnis in seminars in 1980.

These are only a few of the things that we have done. This is probably the reason that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis org (determined by number of schools) at this time.

According to your website you have 28 schools listed.
We have over 50 here in Germany and most of the schools you have listed in Denmark are schools, that students of mine have started. I introduced Modern Arnis in Denmark in 1984.

You also once said, that you already have 19 black belts (a figure, that is about 1 year old).
I have examined more that 100 Modern Arnis black belts from 1st Dan to 5th Dan in the last 20 years.


I could go write a lot more, but I don´t want to brag with "I have done this and that", but I am a little sick of the attitude:
"I am the biggest in the US, so I am the biggest worldwide".
I have no idea, if other organisations in other countries might be bigger than us, so I don´t claim this.

I simply want to make you aware, that there are people in other countries, that do their homework as well, even though you might not know this!

So if you are the biggest IN THE US, fine, congratulations to you, but then please write in the future also "in the US", because you don´t know what is going on in all the other countries in the world.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This is what I’m talking about. When some one makes a claim they must be prepared to back it up.

Dieter has given me the opportunity to show what I’m talking about.

My comments about the WMAA accomplishments in no way were meant to insult Dieter. Let me CLAIRIFY my statements.

The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto. Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernesto’s style were most of the Americans do Remy’s.

Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis. This is where the problem begins. When we in America say Modern Arnis we think of the founder “Remy Presas” not his younger brother Ernesto.

As I recall in a WEKAF magazine you join up with Remy in the mid 90’s. When I think of you I think of an Ernesto guy first. So when I read the following:

I started to write examination curriculums back in 1983. In 1985 my students and I founded the German Arnis Association (Deutscher Arnis Verband e.V., DAV), which since then is concerned in spreading Modern Arnis.

Or

I started teaching seminars with brown/black belts only around 1986.
I started TEACHING Arnis in seminars in 1980.

And

According to your website you have 28 schools listed. We have over 50 here in Germany and most of the schools you have listed in Denmark are schools that students of mine have started. I introduced Modern Arnis in Denmark in 1984.

I think of a different system than what I’m doing. In the future I’ll probably put something to the extent that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis group in the world (Based on the teachings of Remy A. Presas). Hopefully this will eliminate any confusion in the future.


Now I feel that I have answered the questions. I don’t feel offended. Dieter may not agree with what I wrote. And we have the right to disagree. This is how I expected to be answered, not attacked. If no one had the answer they could of wrote “ Don’t know let me check on that”.

We ALL need to be held accountable for what we say, write and do.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
WMAA

 

[Dieter]

The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto. Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernesto?s style were most of the Americans do Remy?s.

This used to be like that. But for Remy examened the last 50 of our black belt exams and did not tell me "you are doing Ernestos style and not mine", I count myself to Remy´s Modern Arnis, no matter if you say we are or we are not. After the gradings he said on in the seminars, that he always was VERY happy with the quality of the gradings.

And Remy promoted me to DATU in 1996 for exeptional efforts in spreading Modern Arnis. And he should know.

Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis.

This was years after we split.

My comments about the WMAA accomplishments in no way were meant to insult Dieter

I did not take it as a personal insult. I would not expect that anyway. Nor was I trying to insult Tim.
All I wanted to poit out is the fact, that the world is bigger than the US and I have the feeling that US americans sometimes tend to forget this a little.

I think of a different system than what I?m doing. In the future I?ll probably put something to the extent that the WMAA is the largest Modern Arnis group in the world (Based on the teachings of Remy A. Presas). Hopefully this will eliminate any confusion in the future.

This is exactly the point: Do you know how big the group in Australia is, where Roland Dantes teaches? How about the Philippines? Don´t they belong to the world? Do you know how big they are? I don´t. Why don´t you say "USA" and we are in agreement?

I think of a different system than what I?m doing.

This is interesting. And still, even though you think of a different system, you list 8 danish schools as WMAA schools (25 % of the WMAA), even though they base on my and Ernestos teaching and not on yours.

We call this " measuring with 2 different scales"
And we also do base our teaching to a large extend on the teaching of Remy.


I don´t write all that to say that we are bigger. Thats not the point.
As we are influenced by Ernesto, you are by your Balintawak teacher and Dr. Guy for example. We all have our individual way and Remy accepted this.

Granted, there are differences (I will demonstrate at the symposium) but I´ll bet there are differenced between Tim´s, Dan´s and Kelly´s Modern Arnis as well. And you all learned under Remy.

Remy gave us the freedom not to be like robots, everybody like the other, so expect that there are differences.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

You see, that is how the communication is supposed to work. I wrote something, Dieter questioned it, I explained my position, then he explained his. No harm, no foul. This is what I expected from the IMAF. When I ask questions, I don't mix words. When I try to be PC, sometimes the message doesn't come across right. If anyone has questions about me or the WMAA, I am more than happy to answer them. Although some things are not meant for public discussion. If you make a claim on a public forum, then be prepared to answer it publically.

That being said, I think Dieter brings some good information for another potential thread...Modern Arnis in Europe. Let's not stray too much from the topic on this thread. One thing I will say in response to Dieter's comments, as far as the schools in Denmark go, when I did my first seminar over there, I was told that the Modern Arnis that I was teaching, was not what they learned. They joined the WMAA to learn that system. Being a member in our organization is different than being a certified instructor. The trip that I am starting this weekend is to help the Danish learn more of the program.

I leave Sunday for a two-week European tour. I will be back on the 30th. I will not have access to a computer until I am in Sweden. If anyone needs to talk to me before I leave, feel free to call or e-mail before Saturday.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
WMAA
:asian:

 

[Dieter]

far as the schools in Denmark go, when I did my first seminar over there, I was told that the Modern Arnis that I was teaching, was not what they learned.

Since mid of the 90ies, the contact between Arnis Germany and Arnis Denmark was very loose. They still belong to Ernesto and me having had a split with him. Therfore many things of Remy did not come up to Denmark.

Anyway, of course I asked them how the seminar with you was, when you were there the last time and the answer I got was: "It was good, but nothing really new."
Of course they did not learn the same system than you teach, because we both have different backgrounds.

But even the people that learned with Remy in the 80ies were learning different things than in the late 90ies. (I am not evaluating this statement).

But I think, this is obvious.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Dieter,
let's move this topic to this thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3651

 

[Cruentus]

Wow...I go away from my computer for a few days, and look what happends! I will address one issue, since I was "name dropped" while I have time. I'll give my $0.02 later on other issues.

Stick-i-buns:

You apoligized to Mr. Hartman, but not to me. So, I am going to put this as nicely as I can, only because I don't want to get banned, and Kaith already warned everyone to play nice. (Sorry Kaith, I don't know how else to say this to him) You are a coward. You hide behind your screen name and mud sling, and then you try to make it look like you don't have an agenda...like your some unbiased bystander who is just expressing your point of view. Your misrepresenting yourself, which appears to be condusive of the organization you support. You shame Tim Hartman and myself for fingerpointing, when you are doing the same to us; hypocritical, don't you think. I know that I am not perfect, and that as of lately I have been notorious for starting trouble. But my trouble causing isn't motivated soley by the desire to put someone down who has been honest from the beginning. The one thing that can not be said is that Mr. Hartman or myself is dishonest; and if that was true for other groups, this thread would have never started. Furthermore, at least I am not a coward. My name and contact information is on display at the WMAA site, and my e-mail address should be in my profile. I would happy to talk to anyone. If you want to talk to me, and if your going to be a gentleman (or lady if "stick i buns" is a female) as opposed to not being a little b**ch, then call me. And If you ever want to cross sticks, I'd be welcome to oblige.
We can play nice, or not...it's up to you.

And as to your "drone" comment, nothing could further from the truth. Tim Hartman doesn't tell me what to say or do, My actions are my own accord. As an Organization leader, he does in fact give me the freedom to speak my mind, which is one of the many reasons I am a proud member of the WMAA.

And, by the way, it is a good thing you can hide behind a keyboard. If you were to ever call me a whiner in front of my face, I would probably be in jail for killing you. I never once "whined" about the "Presas family" not calling me. I did, however, discuss my feelings on the lack of communication by certian leaders the year before Remy died. Get your fact's straight before you go on the net and do someone elses dirty work.

Respectfully,
PAUL JANULIS
(248)722-1634

 

[Cruentus]

Datu Dieter and Datu Hartman have both demonstrated leadership on this thread, as well as this forum all together. Everyone could learn from analyzing the exchange between these two professionals on this thread. They disagreed about something, but what happend? They talked it out. No one was trying to put the other down, or misrepresent themselves to make themselves look better. They were both professional, honest, and communicative.

I wish I could say the same about everyone else out there; and frankly, if everyone else was honest and communicative, not only would this thread have never started, but it would have never gotten to the point of me writing the letter I wrote and posting it (see "Letter to the IMAF, Inc." thread) to the organization currently in question. The lack of clarity in the answer to Renegades original question is the same lack of communication and misrepresentation that I have discussed in previous posts.

 

[jaybacca72]

and i thought us kenpo guys had alot.
btw if anyone wants to know how good Tim is at applying his skills at teaching or stick fighting ask his students in other countries ,and you have no idea stick i bunz about how we train,which is alot harder than most that's for sure.i have seen dieters group warming up for thier grading in germany in 99 and i have witnessed tests at the michigan camps,and this past wmma camp and test Tim had the standards were much higher than what remy himself expected.Tim did resolve the belt issues with remy at the camp,i told Professor fathers and sons sometimes fight but they always still care for each other then i ran . Remy would be proud of the way his art is spreading but not the back stabbing that has happened.
jay

 

[dearnis.com]

A few things now, we'll get some other issues later.
First, complements to Datus Dieter and Tim for keeping things professional. Everyone should note that both men are skilled players who have contributed a great deal to te art. we should also remember that both are also professional martial artists in that they make a good portion of their living from the martial arts, specifically Modern Arnis. Obvioulsy it is in the interest of both men to have their credentials and accomplishments accurately portrayed for public view. (an that, in essence, is what this thread is about).
Second, stick-i-bunz; you might take a lesson from the protocols on the WMAC forum; sign a real name if you are going to start flaming. You don't sound like anyone I know personally, and since I was an instructor at Tulane Martial arts for nearly ten years, head instructor for five, remain a technical advisor, was the first person to introduce Modern Arnis to the Tulane curriculum (circa 1994), watched ALL of the current Modern Arnis black belts/brown belts at the club now earn their rank, and issued those same individuals their dan rankings under Mr. Dillman I have some strong feelings about throwing that program's name around.
Or if you are trolling for the other member of this board who is involved with Tulane you might get your history and facts right first.
Chad Dulin

 

[mikejohnson]

Good to hear from you Chad.

I am currently an instructor at the Tulane Martial Arts Club. I have no idea who "sticky buns" is, but I can assure you they have no affiliation with Tulane. There are only two of us here currently who have even met Datu Hartman, and I know neither of us would ever go by the name "sticky buns"...

Our club trains in a number of styles, including Modern Arnis. We are not formally affiliated with any Arnis organization, but I believe I speak for the club when I say that we respect all the leaders who are working to preserve and spead the Professor's art. If any of you are vacationing in New Orleans, drop me a line. We'd love to work out with you.


Mike Johnson

 

[arnisador]

I was in New Orleans a year ago--wish I had known about the open invitation!

 

[Dieter]

i have seen dieters group warming up for thier grading in germany in 99 and i have witnessed tests at the michigan camps,and this past wmma camp and test Tim had the standards were much higher than what remy himself expected.

I don´t really know what you want to say with thst because you ahve not seen the grading nor know the program.

Anyway, I never claimed that we are better than oters. I can´t because I don´t know the other gradings of other associations.

All I wanted to point out is, that the Professor, Roland Dantes and quite a few 5th, 4th and 3rd Dans of Modern Arnis from america confirmed, that we have a high level of MODERN ARNIS.
That does not mean, that others cannot have a high standart too.

I just oppose to the statement, that what we do is not Modern Arnis.

The Professor and the other mentioned individuals saw it and said it.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

 

[David Hoffman]

I would like to offer a little clarification for this thread. The information on the IMAF website is indeed accurate. It is a work in progress and is thus, not complete, but information is not intentionally left out. As the Federation continues to grow and organize, (and time permitting considering our web master Tiffany Tye has volunteered countless hours of hard work to date), more information will be made available, and photo’s and techniques will be archived for the future.

Specifically regarding the subject of this thread:

The website is not a complete listing of all instructors, members etc. At present the core and leadership are presented, appeals have been made for more information to be posted on the site and more instructors/schools to undertake direct affiliation and list their details. Some are great instructors but a little slow to react with data. The school listing in particular is a listing of active schools and not instructors. Thus various masters are not listed in this section unless they have submitted school/class information and requested a listing. The website is not in existence for the promotion of the Federation leadership, several of whom are available for seminars and instruction, and thus does not carry excess ‘advertising’ for instructors/leaders not currently offering classes. I am also not listed in the school directory as my school is currently inactive. Similar is true of our Chairman, Dr. Schea teaches regular classes and is also not listed in the school member section not being a school owner. There has not yet been any listing/section on instructors, be they seminar instructors or either inactive, teaching at another’s school, or only teaching privately.

So please watch the site develop as more schools, events and instructors are listed. I believe the same is true for Gaby Roloff, she is not listed under schools as I believe she teaches privately and at seminars, She, as others, is listed were appropriate on the site, not gratuitously.

The IMAF remains active in pioneering the UK. This obviously suffered a setback when our teacher got sick, as did the whole Martial Arts world. There are, nonetheless, ongoing efforts, and recent progress in pioneering the art in the UK as was Professor wished. I remain involved with this and have given additional training and support to my students and representative in the UK in the lasyear.

IMAF phil was always a chapter of IMAF and has remained in close cooperation and consultation during these last two difficult years. I believe it is good for the Federation if those ties are more formal and involved as has been recently announced. Samual Dulay (Bambit) followed Professors instructions in the Philippines and acted on his behalf honorably and effectively. Brother Datu Shishir is of course, one of the legends of Modern Arnis and has been very busy promoting Modern Arnis in The PI, Canada and beyond.


In short: a lack of information does not suggest a willful omission. Some information is either not pertinent or has not yet found it’s way on the site. If people use words like fraudulent and only point out criticisms that make an organization seem under attack they can expect that people will be indignant and react emotionally. We are not trial lawyers and do not have to examine our papers and words so in depth. It is also not fair to say Dr. Randi does not return emails or calls, he has always answered mine and I do not see why he would not also answer others. I hope that we can all seek the truth, our part in Professor’s legacy and advancement of our ambitions without getting ours or others feathers too ruffled. More importantly, I truly hope that we can honor our teachers memory by cooperating to preserve and promote the art by setting aside our petty egos and private agendas to better improve and share our collective knowledge.

 

[Brian Johns]

Thanks to Datu Hoffman for more clarification of some of the issues that have been discussed on this forum. Well said David !!!

Brian Johns
Member, IMAF, Inc. Board of Directors.

 

[Mao]

I echo Guro Johns' sentiment. Perhaps aonther IMAF voice will help.

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio

 

[Cruentus]

Thank you Mr. Hoffman for your reply. I don't know if all of Renegades questions were answered, but I'm sure he'll clarify on here if they weren't.

Hopefully you two will be able to dialog professionally and come to a conclusion on the issue if Mr. Hartman has more concerns. I do not think it was fair for Mr. Hartman to have to go through a barage of personal attacks (especially regarding his relationship with our late teacher) to achieve professionalism and clarity, but better late then never I guess.


:idunno: