IMAF Leadership

[Bob Hubbard]

Pauls bill is in the mail...

My personal opinion is that -all- the groups should be at the 1st symposium. Why? Simple. Every group involved will both benifit and lose from it. If youre not there, you only stand to lose.

Benifits -
- higher exposure for their group,
- re-exposure to techniques they havent seen in a while or have never seen.
- potential to increase their student/school base
-chance to demonstrate their skills and visions
-chance to increase seminar bookings
-alliances will be formed

Loses -
-students/schools may change affiliations
-you may fall flat on your face.

The Kenpo folks have a saying "Time will either promote or expose you".

I do not expect to see the estemed Jeff Delaney there...he has too much to lose, and his 'empire' is rapidly shrinking. Mired in multiple scandels and his senior members jumping left and right.

You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is). You can also look at it in a more positive way, a chance for your group to shine. IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. Another plus might be the establishment or reestablishment of a number of relationships and communications chanels.

Just My thoughts...which usually end up with me in hot water. Ah well.

Peace Yall.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Mao

I was not trying to debate or argue or even disagree. I was only
restating a point.


"You can disagree all you want, but that does not alter the fact that neither Delaney nor the other MoTTs are accepted as the leaders of Modern Arnis by some people outside of the respective groups that these folks lead."

-I wasn't in disagreement with you, in fact I agree. This will always be the case due to ego and whatnot.

"It points toward some work that needs to be done to "correct" that impression."

-I agree again. There is always work to be done.

"You as a member of the IMAF, Inc and a Board of Directors member, have a vested interest in this and there are others with vested interest and a different point of view. "

-Of course, there are always different points of view.


"I am sure that some people may very well accept your invitation to see and work with the IMAF, Inc leaders, others will not. Some people are waiting to see if Delaney and the other MoTTs are going to present at the Symposium. "

-Again I say, why wait. One can find events at modernarnis.net and go see now. Just because someone does or does not go to the Symp. does not prove or disprove anything. There are ample times and places to check things out for yourself long before the symp..

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF,inc. Board of Directors

Hey Dan,

I love this one, we are in total agreement.

BTW, are you going to come up for Bram's Gunting Seminar on September 29?

The date is being revised because of several institutuional requests (read LEO and Reserve MP). The Saturday schedule is closed to the general public, but Sunday in Lockport is open for everyone.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Mao]

Kaith,

"If youre not there, you only stand to lose."

-I disagree. One stands to win if they have their own event going on at the same time.


'You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is)."

-This is what it sound like more and more. Sounds a bit antagonistic. I don't have anything to prove. I have found that people generally respond much better if you are positive with them.

" IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. "

-We get good PR now. In the large scheme of things, there are very few people who would disagree. With the way it is being hyped, the symp. may not sound like a friendly gathering to some, if not many. Your not in any hot h2o where I'm concerned.

Dr. Barber,

I don't know what events I'll make it to for a while, perhaps up to 11/2 yrs.. I am being promoted and my schedule will change big time in two days.


Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Pauls bill is in the mail...

My personal opinion is that -all- the groups should be at the 1st symposium. Why? Simple. Every group involved will both benifit and lose from it. If youre not there, you only stand to lose.

Benifits -
- higher exposure for their group,
- re-exposure to techniques they havent seen in a while or have never seen.
- potential to increase their student/school base
-chance to demonstrate their skills and visions
-chance to increase seminar bookings
-alliances will be formed

Loses -
-students/schools may change affiliations
-you may fall flat on your face.

The Kenpo folks have a saying "Time will either promote or expose you".

I do not expect to see the estemed Jeff Delaney there...he has too much to lose, and his 'empire' is rapidly shrinking. Mired in multiple scandels and his senior members jumping left and right.

You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is). You can also look at it in a more positive way, a chance for your group to shine. IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. Another plus might be the establishment or reestablishment of a number of relationships and communications chanels.

Just My thoughts...which usually end up with me in hot water. Ah well.

Peace Yall.

Nicely put Bob. There are definate pros and cons to attending and not attending the Symposium. Each individual has to make their own mind up about being there and/or presenting. On the other hand the Symposium is not just a "put up or shut up" situation. It is an opportunity for all of us to meet and talk face to face. It is an opportunity for all of us to see and train with people who represent the art of Modern Arnis and are coming at it from different perspectives and time periods. There are some beautiful benefits that can be derived from attending the event.

It might be helpful and enlightening if we began to hear from some of the people who are planning to attend. Granted that there is a need for some more information from me, which I will post as it is developed with regard to the exact location and cost,
but if we can agree that in theory no one will have to mortgage their home or sell their first born male child to attend - the date is firm - July 11, 12 and 13, 2002. How many people want to be there?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks Mr. McConell, that does help. Congratulations on your upcoming promotion!

 

[Cruentus]

MAO:

Just take time to talk to them before you make them sound so bad. I thought you knew some of them better than that. There are so many ways to contact them that it is silly not to.

I'm not trying to make anyone look bad at all, but I do want an answer to my original question.

Does the IMAF Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (at the highest level of knowledge) , or does the IMAF Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of the many that are a part of Modern Arnis as a whole?

I want the question answered, and I think that the IMAF, Inc., as leaders, owe it to all of us who have put our blood, sweat, and tears into the art a public answer or statement as to the stance on this issue.

I am sorry, but I really I can't see myself visiting or attending an IMAF, Inc seminar or sponsered event until I know what I am attending, and what the ethics are of the group that I am visiting.

It is nothing personal either, and it is not related to the past. I'm not still upset about the past, but I am concerned about the present. As of yet, I don't know where the IMAF, Inc. stands as a group in terms of their opinions on how they fit in as leaders.

There are a lot of people in the IMAF, Inc. group that I like, but that is irrelevent. I'm not making character judgements on individuals, and this is not personal against any one individual.

I just want to know the answer to my original question, so I can make a decision about where I stand in relationship to the IMAF, Inc. I would like to see this answer made public, so others know where they stand also.

I don't think I am asking for to great of a request.

:apv:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Mao

Kaith,

"If youre not there, you only stand to lose."

-I disagree. One stands to win if they have their own event going on at the same time.


'You can all look at it as a "put up or shut up" event (which it is)."

-This is what it sound like more and more. Sounds a bit antagonistic. I don't have anything to prove. I have found that people generally respond much better if you are positive with them.

" IMHO the IMAF inc should encourage ALL of the MOTTs to be there. It would give them a lot of good PR. "

-We get good PR now. In the large scheme of things, there are very few people who would disagree. With the way it is being hyped, the symp. may not sound like a friendly gathering to some, if not many. Your not in any hot h2o where I'm concerned.

Dr. Barber,

I don't know what events I'll make it to for a while, perhaps up to 11/2 yrs.. I am being promoted and my schedule will change big time in two days.


Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors

Hello Dan,

Congratulations on your promotion and I understand time and responsibilty restraints.

With regard to the "put up or shut up" idea. That is not and never has been the primary theme that has driven the "smyp" forward. Most of the people with whom I have communicated off-forum(s) are excited about the prospect of having an opportunity to see and train with several of the prospective instructors. Time, distance, travel costs and other factors have not always been favorable. You have made more of this aspect of the "symp" than anyone else.

I was quite positive about hosting this event in the past and I am greatly encouraged over the past two weeks with the responses and e-mails that I have received and actually several people are looking forward to you presenting because they like your style. So you have generated some publicity.

A lot of the same kind of nay-saying and bad-mouthing preceded the first Kenpo Grathering of Eagles in 1999. The major prediction was that this was going to be a fest to "beat up on" the late GM Ed Parker and his IKKA , because a major player in the organization of the event was GM Al Tracy. Lo and behold, the GOEI went down without a single major dispute and the GOEII in 2001 was bigger and better. It was not a "big old love fest", however it was a great opportunity for people to get together, show one another their take on Kenpo/Kempo and Kajukenbo, plus some Tai Chi, Eskrima and Arnis got thrown in besides.

If you think that there is disagreemnt within the very small art of Modern Arnis, try dealing with kenpoists! People will attend the "symp" or stay away according to their own needs and perceptions - however correct or incorreect they may be. If you want to sit in the middle of this forum and predict negative things, go for it! The bottom line is that I am moving forward and putting this event together for all of those people who want to and are willing to attend. To use a paraphrase: those who attend have nothing to prove to those who stay away!

Of course, anyone can now plan their own event and set up for the same weekend as the "symp". More power to them. Anyone can "... have their own event going...", but what is really being "won" when one stays away from the "symp"? I would suggest - not very much - because one is merely preaching to the already committed followers.

No one should come to the "symp" to prove anything... they should attend to learn form others and to see how varied the art of Modern Arnis really is at this point in time. Whether or not the MoTTs and or Delaney attend the "symp" it will go on at the appointed time and place.

I believe that you dismissed Paul's comment just a bit too causally with your '**** stirrer' opening in your response. Even though I would not agree with everything that he said, I read it as an honest statement of his concerns. Put his comments aginst a long list of others and going back to your own responses to some posts, I would suggest that the IMAF, Inc has a public relations problem with some people outside of the organization.
As a board member, you can ignore these comments, belittle them or take them to heart and try to work a new set of policy and mission statements that address the concerns expressed.

It is not my place to tell what and how to go about your duties as a board member because I am not registered with the IMAF, Inc.
My comments are for your consideration and given as honest suggestions. All suggestions and advise can be rejected by the receiver.

To simply ASSume that all is well for the IMAF and that only a few people are unhappy with the statements posted on the IMAF,Inc. website is a mistake, in my estimation. The IMAF Board should consider the statements that have been made within numerous posts over several threads on this and other forums. Then the board members can decide on a course of action, which could include changing nothing.

Now that I said all of that, I am finished with the matter. I "symp - ly" hope that some good things will be generated from all of these posts.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Mao]

Brian Johns and I have answered many questions on this forum. I'll not revisit past issues that have been answered. It is too easy to get in touch with the IMAF and it's leaders to go on with it here. Our answers have aparently not sufficed even though we are on the Board. Paul should have all the phone #'s from past camps. If he doesn't, Tim does and Paul is in Tims group so that is a no brainer. I harbor no ill will nor do I bad mouth or speak negatively about the proposed symp.. If that is unclear, then hear this, I sincerely hope good comes of the symp.. It is a good idea for everyone to meet. It is a big world out there away from our pc's and we should seek every avenue to have our questions answered and not confine them to this forum. I will no longer partake in antagonistic conversation. I'd rather be friends than enemies. I realize that there are some who will not be appeased no matter what is said. That's too bad. I wish them well. I'm moving on.

Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. board of Directors

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Mao

Brian Johns and I have answered many questions on this forum. I'll not revisit past issues that have been answered. It is too easy to get in touch with the IMAF and it's leaders to go on with it here. Our answers have aparently not sufficed even though we are on the Board. Paul should have all the phone #'s from past camps. If he doesn't, Tim does and Paul is in Tims group so that is a no brainer. I harbor no ill will nor do I bad mouth or speak negatively about the proposed symp.. If that is unclear, then hear this, I sincerely hope good comes of the symp.. It is a good idea for everyone to meet. It is a big world out there away from our pc's and we should seek every avenue to have our questions answered and not confine them to this forum. I will no longer partake in antagonistic conversation. I'd rather be friends than enemies. I realize that there are some who will not be appeased no matter what is said. That's too bad. I wish them well. I'm moving on.

Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. board of Directors

Hello Dan,

Excellent response, thanks. I am doing this matter as I said before. My efforst are to get this Symposium going and working to make it as successful as I can. Of course the ulitmate results will depend on the people who actually attend as participants and as instructors. One group can not succed without the other.

As for calling or talking to the MoTTs. Since I have written to Dr. Schea and Ken Smith and I have not received a reply from either in 2 months, I consider the matter closed until one of them or another MoTT contacts me. If that does not hapen, it simply does not happen. There are a couple of spots being held open for the MoTTs and Jeff Delaney. I will close off those positions early next year because my intention is to have 16-20 instructors, maximum.

I had mentioned on one if not two other occassions in the past that I had sent messages to the IMAF Inc. website and specificly Dr. Schea. I was follwing up on a comment made by Dan Anderson about the IMAF Inc leadership not responding to some people. That is their choice to make and I accept their
non- response as a strong indication of intent.

Say what you will about Jeff Delaney, however be aware that he did respond to my e-mail announcement and invitation to participate. We exchanged a couple of e-mails. He has not committed to being at the Symposium, but he has kept the door open.

From My Presepctive, Dan, if you follow through and attend the Symposium, you will be representing yourself and your school. If you choose to also represent the IMAF Inc. you will tell me that when I ask for bios and seminar topics rom each prespective instructor.

My goal from here on is get the word out about the Symposium, to get as many people as are interested in this idea to the event itself, to make sure that the facilities are large enough to accomedate the people in attendence and then just stand back and let the instructors and participants interact, naturally.

Professor is gone and a new era is developing. We can particpate in that development, sit back and watch it or retreat from it and wallow in the past. Everyone will be making their own decisions.

It has become very evident throughout the various posts on the different threads that there really is very little chance of a new singlular leadership developing under any single person, however there are enough talented Modern Arnis instructors for the art to prosper and grow. It is going in the direction of Kenpo/Kempo with lots of groups and some excellent players.

Good luck to all of you and I hope to see you in July 2003 at the Modern Arnis Symposium.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[bloodwood]

Many of the problems with leadership in Modern Arnis can be traced back to when the Professor first became ill. He named JD and Dr. Schea co-successors and promoted the Motts. I believe the Professor thought he would recover and JD and DR Schea were chosen because they were organizing and helping Remy run his extensive seminar and camp schedule. There job was to keep things going until the Professor was ready to get back on the road. As for the MOTTS being promoted and set up as a group to run and head the organization, I don't believe this was Remy's intention because they were still under JD and DR Schea. They became a ruling body only after the IMAF split. Had the Professor believed he was going to die, I believe he may have made different decisions. When he did know he would not make it, what he had set in motion had taken on a life of it's own and ran like a freight train. There is no will to speak of, so we only know of Professor's last wishes from those who visited with him at the end. And this information varies greatly.
Even if Professor decided to put something in writhing in the end, many would have disputed it due to the nature of his illness.
The temporary holders of the flame decided to keep it for their own. Remy's flame should not be hoarded but held high to light the way for all the children of Modern Arnis.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Many of the problems with leadership in Modern Arnis can be traced back to when the Professor first became ill. He named JD and Dr. Schea co-successors and promoted the Motts. I believe the Professor thought he would recover and JD and DR Schea were chosen because they were organizing and helping Remy run his extensive seminar and camp schedule. There job was to keep things going until the Professor was ready to get back on the road. As for the MOTTS being promoted and set up as a group to run and head the organization, I don't believe this was Remy's intention because they were still under JD and DR Schea. They became a ruling body only after the IMAF split. Had the Professor believed he was going to die, I believe he may have made different decisions. When he did know he would not make it, what he had set in motion had taken on a life of it's own and ran like a freight train. There is no will to speak of, so we only know of Professor's last wishes from those who visited with him at the end. And this information varies greatly.
Even if Professor decided to put something in writhing in the end, many would have disputed it due to the nature of his illness.
The temporary holders of the flame decided to keep it for their own. Remy's flame should not be hoarded but held high to light the way for all the children of Modern Arnis.

Bloodwood, I want to disagree on just one point, the problems began long before Prorfessor became ill. The problems were endemic to the lack of a formal organiztional structure of Modern Arnis under Professor's leadership. In the 70's, 80's and 90's numerous people stepped forward and tried to help organize a formal structuture for the IMAF under Professor's technical leadership. He rejected all attempts to have a formal organization put into place. That is the true root of all of the problems... it stems from a lack of structured leadership and organzation.

The plus side of IMAF, Inc. under Dr. Schea, is that they are attempting to do what professor never would allow anyone to do during his tenure here in the USA. There are some good reasons for that position from his point of view, but the results are chaos, confusion and a lot more in-fighting than there might have other-wise been.

Go back and check out some of my posts and those of Dan Anderson under the "food fight" thread. Look back at all of the titles that Professor handed out and abandoned. The evidence trail is out there to be followed and understood. This current problems has been a long time in the making.

Plan to come to the Symposium, next year. Meet and train with the folks who will be there. You will have a much better understanding about just how vast and diversified Modern Arnis has become over the 4 decades of its development. You will also realize that all of the development was not done by Professor Presas, alone. There are offshoots and hybrids that are both very exciting and extremely viable.

The vitality of Modern Arnis will be on display in July 2003, in a manner that has never been seen before the Symposium. Many of the top innovators and skilled technicians will be there! The potential instructional coverage spans 40 years and includes people who studied with Professor in he Philippines. This kind of historical retrospective has never happened before in Modern Arnis.

The Symposium is going to be a watershed event. I hope that you can "see" it and that you want to be part of it. The past is done and it never be undone, it can never be changed! We can learn from the past or we will be condemned to repeat it; the future is out there, waiting to be shaped and enjoyed. Let's move forward!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[bloodwood]

Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs.
If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on.
As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending.

 

[Emptyglass]

Hello everyone:

What an interesting and varied discussion! So many opinions and statements from so many camps. As an interested partcipant I would like to comment on 2 posts that have surfaced in this thread so far.

First:

"Tapi Tapi helps the student learn to flow from one movement or lock etc. to another. We do not use the term as a blanket statement to cover all of the art. There are still the "traditionals" among many other aspects to the art. Tapi tapi, generally speaking, takes the student from lock to lock to strike to bait and so on. It is not just a matter of hit for hit, there's more to it than that. For many, it is an experiencial portion of the art. To simply say that it is the flow or that it is any one of the traditionals is to oversimplify. Of course one seeks to flow in terms of tapi tapi, but one can apply the flow to many other aspects as well, and not to just modern arnis. Did that help?"

Guro Dan McConell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors

- Actually, Guro McConell it doesn't help me much in terms of an explanation. It may simply be a lack of understanding on my part (quite possible) and I say this with no disrespect intended, but what you are describing sounds precisely like the Flow concept that Professor taught in summer camps and seminars in the early and mid-90's. Also, Tapi-Tapi (or tapik-tapik?) was shown in the seminars I attended as a counter-for-counter training drill at that time. I also attended a 2-day training camp in North Carolina held in Irwin Carmichael's school around that time which featured (among others) Bobby Taboada and Professor Presas with my friend and training partner Tim Kashino. The relationship of Tapi-Tapi and Balintawak was discussed at that time during meals and training and I gathered that Tapi-Tapi (as it was being shown at that time) was a basic training drill for Balintawak Escrima. Since both Professor and Grandmaster Taboada trained in Balintawak under the legendary Anciong Bacon this made perfect sense to me.

As for saying it is an experiencial portion of the art, that kind of statment makes me very wary when I hear it from an instructor of any discipline or educational process and is the primary reason I wrote this post. As for oversimplifying, I have learned that in the martial arts, the even the most complex techinques and concepts are built from very simple/explainable key ideas that are rooted in the immutable laws of physics. Perhaps it's just the Kenpoist in me but that is my belief and I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that idea so far.

On a side note I find it very interesting that the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) from my time in Professor Presas' presence has now become IMAF, inc. I would gather they are not the same organization, or are they? Some information on that would be very appreciated.

"It might be helpful and enlightening if we began to hear from some of the people who are planning to attend. Granted that there is a need for some more information from me, which I will post as it is developed with regard to the exact location and cost,
but if we can agree that in theory no one will have to mortgage their home or sell their first born male child to attend - the date is firm - July 11, 12 and 13, 2002. How many people want to be there?"

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

- Dr. Barber - me for one! I wouldn't miss so many high-quality instructors of the FMA in one place for the world.

Thanks very much,

Richard Curren

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs.
If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on.
As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending.

Bloodwood,

In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed. There were may things in my opinion that lead to this. Remy Presas did not like to upset people. And as is the nature, if I suggested something as a low ranked person in one area of the country, others with the same rank or higher rank in others area of the country would go, 'Who is this bozo?' and, 'Why should we listen to his plan, here is my plan.' I believe that the professor did not implement one completely do to this character flaw of always wanted to be nice to be.

This does not mean he always was nice, but the older he got, the more, in my opinion, he regretted the violence more. Modern Arnis, is less violent then many of the traditional FMA's, in that Remy Presas had people targeting the canes, and not the actual body parts as targets.

Now this is from my experience, and as anyone can tell you no two people had the same relationship with Remy Presas, so if yours differ, feel free to post your opinion and experience as well.

Rich

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Emptyglass

Hello everyone:

What an interesting and varied discussion! So many opinions and statements from so many camps.

. . .

Since both Professor and Grandmaster Taboada trained in Balintawak under the legendary Anciong Bacon this made perfect sense to me.

. . .

Thanks very much,

Richard Curren

Emptyglass AKA Richard Curran,

From my understanding of your above statement, you believe that both Remy Presas and Bobby Taboada, trained with Anciong Bacon. I believe this to be incorrect.

Remy Presas started his Balintawak training with Toto Moncal, a left hander just like Remy, and Moncal introduced Remy Presas to Timor Maranga. Timor Maranga was a student of Anciong Bacon's and did introduce Remy Presas to GM Bacon. From my understanding that Remy Presas not only trained a lot with Moncal and Maranga, but also with Bacon. The amount of training time, I do not know of at this time.

Bobby Taboada, Started and learned a lot from Pilo Vilez. Pilo Vilez and Dom Lopez were some of the more known students of Joe Villasin. Joe Villasin did train with GM Bacon. The information I have is that Taboada did train with Vilez and Villasin, but not Anciong. If I am wrong, please let me know, and also your source so I can verify for my personal history.

Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?

Note: I am not trying to challenge you or anyone else on this, I am only trying to resolve a difference in information and possible understanding that I have.

Thank you for your time.

Rich


References:
Remy Presas lineage - Remy Presas - Rocky Paswik (posts Rocky has made that line up with what I heard from the other two myself) and Ted Buot.

Bobby Taboada lineage - a Taboada web-page and Ted Buot via discussions with Toboada.

 

[Mao]

I could give a more difinitive answer to the tapi tapi question, but so many people have so many diff. opinions that it would neither edify nor help the topic get settled, so I won't. Some people won't be satisfied regardless of the answer. I see that you have made 4 posts so far. Perhaps you have been reading the previous posts/threads on the issue. Perhaps not, but you could find more opinions by reading them.
As for my saying that it is an experiencial portion of the art for some, that is to say that for some, the only explanation is to get in there and try it. They may niether understand by way of verbal explanation or even by watching. They just gotta do it.


" I have learned that in the martial arts, the even the most complex techinques and concepts are built from very simple/explainable key ideas that are rooted in the immutable laws of physics."

-I agree and it is. You can find these answers in earlier posts as well.

"On a side note I find it very interesting that the International Modern Arnis Federation (IMAF) from my time in Professor Presas' presence has now become IMAF, inc. I would gather they are not the same organization, or are they? "

-They are not.

Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF , inc. Board of Directors

 

[arnisador]

The tapi-tapi does indeed come from Balintawak. Ted Buot teaches it also.

There's a lot of info. in this forum on how the two IMAFs came about! If you have the time to dig you'll find a lot of stuff on it.

 

[Cruentus]

I'll restate the question:

Does the IMAF, Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (and the only ones sanctioned by professor to to teach his complete art), or does the IMAF, Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of many that are a part of the Modern Arnis family?

This has been an interesting discussion, but nobody from the IMAF, Inc. has been able to answer my question. I will not allow myself to be blown off as if I am trying to be antagonistic, or a s**t stirrer. I honestly want an answer to the question.

Understand that before this thread, that question has NEVER been presented. This isn't about the past, or about resentments, about personal vendettas, or about different opinions on Tapi-Tapi. This is about the present and the future; it is about where the IMAF, Inc. thinks they fit in in terms of leadership.

Currently, with the information that is available, one is led to make some logical deductions (as I explained previously on this thread) that I feel may be inaccurate. Before I can comfortably attend or visit any IMAF, Inc. activities, I think it is fair to ask the above question PUBLICALLY, so that there will be no misunderstandings as to the motives of the group.

I am not just going to call someone, or attend/support an event unless a public statement is made, answering my question.

If you need to know why, look at the Jeff Delaney example. Jeff Delaney, Lisa McManus, and others have proven to be lier's and frauds. They came right out and stated their claims from the beginning; so deciding whether or not I'll attend their events is a no brainer. I have already decided to personally make sure everyone knows that him and his group is fraudulent, I didn't have to make one phone call to make this decision

I just need to know what IMAF, Inc. is claiming so I can decide whether or not I would like a positive relationship with that group. I need it to be public info so people won't doubt my motives for having a positive relationship with the group. It is just that simple.

And to say that the IMAF, Inc. is not claiming anything, or to differ answering my question, is crap. There is enough implied info that is out there, and to imply a lie (if that is what is being intentionally done) is the same as outright lying.

If I can't get a public answer on this forum, then I will email and write IMAF, Inc. myself. I will try to make a few phone calls as well, but an over the phone answer will not be enough; as I said this answer should be publically stated.

Still waiting for an answer,
PAUL
:apv:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons



Emptyglass AKA Richard Curran,

From my understanding of your above statement, you believe that both Remy Presas and Bobby Taboada, trained with Anciong Bacon. I believe this to be incorrect.

Remy Presas started his Balintawak training with Toto Moncal, a left hander just like Remy, and Moncal introduced Remy Presas to Timor Maranga. Timor Maranga was a student of Anciong Bacon's and did introduce Remy Presas to GM Bacon. From my understanding that Remy Presas not only trained a lot with Moncal and Maranga, but also with Bacon. The amount of training time, I do not know of at this time.

Bobby Taboada, Started and learned a lot from Pilo Vilez. Pilo Vilez and Dom Lopez were some of the more known students of Joe Villasin. Joe Villasin did train with GM Bacon. The information I have is that Taboada did train with Vilez and Villasin, but not Anciong. If I am wrong, please let me know, and also your source so I can verify for my personal history.

Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?

Note: I am not trying to challenge you or anyone else on this, I am only trying to resolve a difference in information and possible understanding that I have.

Thank you for your time.

Rich


References:
Remy Presas lineage - Remy Presas - Rocky Paswik (posts Rocky has made that line up with what I heard from the other two myself) and Ted Buot.

Bobby Taboada lineage - a Taboada web-page and Ted Buot via discussions with Toboada.

Hi Rich,

I believe that you are not entirely correct with regard to your lineages. I have information from both Professor Presas and Bobby Taboada about their training and instructors. In addition, Professor personally approved in 1989, that portion of my lineage chart with regard to his instructors and the Modern Arnis lineage that came down to me.

For Professor:

Leon Presas - his grandfather - Palis-palis and Crossada in the Espada y Daga format.

Also see tape 6 of the orginal Modern Arnis series recorded by the Clapps in the mid 1980's. Listen to his explanations about who first taught him the art of arnis. I believe that he also mentions this on his Black Belt Video Series - tape 2, if I remember it correctly.

He later trained in Balintawak under Rodelpho Moncol, Temeteo Maranga and finally Venacio Bacon in that order.

In an interview published in May/June 1989 issue of Karate international, page 14, Professsor gives the same order of instructors, however he does not specificly name his grandfather.
But in the December 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu, on page 35, Professor names Leon Presas, as his first instructor in the art of arnis. He very specificly states that his grandfather was a veteran of Spanish-American War and that he was trained in his grandfathers "...style of arnis, espada y daga (sword and dagger) when I was six years old." He later explains that he trained with Moncal, Maranga and then the GM Bacon, himself for 4 years. {Those pieces of information are found on page 36 of the article}

Your information regarding GM Bobby Taboada is also not entirely accurate. Since GM Bacon, did not teach any begining students, with the possible exceptions of GM Ted Buot and GM Dom Lopez, Taboada had to pass through the same type of graduated structure that Professor had encountered. His lineage was through Teofilio Velez to Jose Villasin to GM Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.

If GM Taboada did not study with the late Balintawak GM Bacon, then why is he shown in an 8mm training film shot by GM Johnny Chiuten, sparring with the GM? If he was never part of the innner circle of Bacon students, why is he recognized as such by GM Chiuten as well as Chito Velez, the son of the late GM Teofilio Velez? Why would Professor Presas, acknowledge GM Taboada as fellow student of his teacher GM Bacon, if such were not the case?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another. I see what you're saying about problems going way back to the beginning and I guess all those high promotions over the years have been stacking up to cause the present state of affairs.
If the Professor couldn't do it, or just didn't want to, there's no way it will happen now. The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper. As you said lets move on.
As for the symposium, if I'm clear I plan on attending.

Dear Bloodwood,

Rich Parsons has answered your question beautifully and I really can not add any profound new information to his statements. The key thing to remember is that there has always been a great deal of in-fighting within Modern Arnis. While professor was alive no one really met anyone else outside of a seminar or camp from different areas of the country. Virtually everything centered on Professor. That is what makes the 2003 Symposium is important and different. Everyone who attends will be meeting people that they have never met before. Some of will be meeting people that we have only heard about, most of us will be meeting people whom we have Never Heard About! But the bottom line is that many of these people will prove to be excellent Modern arnis instructors and technicians. It is time to move on, to move forward and explore the art as we have never done before.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.