I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[ShotoNoob]

...BTW I have encountered this same individual on a couple of occasions since and can say that he seems to be an excellent instructor as well as a superior athlete, and he was quite friendly to me. So, there's no criticism intended. I'm just pointing out one reason why people are so compliant!

|
Why would you need to apologize for testing / demonstrating the efficacy of what the instructor was presenting?

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Since then I have had time to think more about it. People bag TMAs for not adapting to new concepts. Here we have a style, WC, adding an element to their training which, for better or worse, they have labeled 'anti-grappling'. Now I might have thought the detractors might have welcomed that as an improvement, but no, it is 'hilarious'.

|
I thought your comment was excellent. Bring in a broader perspective.
|
I'm not grappler, I found the vid of value. I've seen similar moves in traditional karate schools.
|
They are not trying to replicate BJJ. BJJ is by all accounts an excellent grappling system.
\
As the same time i reject an outright condemnation of the WC vid as useless. I think the expertise here @ MT gets in the way of practitioners exploring some tactics on their own.
|
Quite frankly, I burst the Gracie BJJ bubble here. The Rolles Gracie loss recently versus standard MMA striking... and to say much more sophisticated WC practitioner couldn't stop a Gracie, come on... The WC instructor put up a vid to show some of the versatility of WC which I believe is more formidable against grapplers than the grappling aficionados either realize or admit...

 

[drop bear]

I have done a little bit of groundwork training in my school; one of the things we learned was shrimping and bridging when mounted, though I had to look up "bjj bridging" to recognize it because it was referred to by a different name. Also, we did not call what we were learning "anti-grappling'.

Like many posters who have already made the point, nearly all striking arts have techniques or methods to regain an upright position, and sometimes even dealing with a common thing like the mount or various takedowns. Are we going to do a witch hunt through every TMA and ridicule how something they teach would not be effective against a BJJ blue belt?

Saying "here is something you can use when an angry brawler tries to tackle you" or similar is a legitimate thing to say and more honest than implying the techniques are designed to be used against experienced grapplers. I would agree that if you want to out-grapple a grappler then there is no denying the value in just going and learning their game (i.e cross train). You might be surprised how many WC/WT would agree with that. If they are like me though, they don't want to grapple with a grappler though.

Ok. Here is the issue. There is a lot of simple stuff you could learn that would work against a brawler that is the same simple stuff used in a ufc match.(just done better)

And some people instead of doing that do something craptastic for absolutely no good reason.

And for people who know the difference they tend to yell at this point.

"do a simple high percentage counter and stop fluffing about with whatever the hell you are trying to do."

Then you get all this baggage they want to chain punch they want to eye gouge or apply the principles of nasi goreng. They want to do ever bloody thing except a basic high percentage counter.

And when you suggest this baggage is unhelpful will get you bashed by a person who has done a day of bjj and seems to be for the benefit of feeding the ego of the instructor. You get accused of style bashing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That's true. When I posted my "anti-striking" strategy by using "rhino guard", I got similar concerns as, "It won't work against a good boxer ...".

|
I would never want to use this. Not to say the "rhino guard" isn't an alternative.
|
I would think in an initial encounter, it just might be the instinctual guard to buy one some time. It's about exploring workable alternatives....

 

[Hanzou]

I have no idea why this thread is suddenly about my training history instead of the topic at hand. Again, I only request videos if someone is making an unusual claim, such as competent WC anti-grappling. I want to see it. I don't want to see a member perform a basic WC technique.

Clearly some posters have an axe to grind. I'm simply interested in continuing discussing this topic which is very interesting. Why is it interesting? Because you have respected WC instructors performing clearly bad MA, and it would be interesting to hear WC exponents explain why this is the case. Further, it would be interesting to hear why WC exponents feel the need to create this dubious sub-system in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

I have no idea why this thread is suddenly about my training history instead of the topic at hand. Again, I only request videos if someone is making an unusual claim, such as competent WC anti-grappling. I want to see it. I don't want to see a member perform a basic WC technique.

Clearly some posters have an axe to grind. I'm simply interested in continuing discussing this topic which is very interesting. Why is it interesting? Because you have respected WC instructors performing clearly bad MA, and it would be interesting to hear WC exponents explain why this is the case. Further, it would be interesting to hear why WC exponents feel the need to create this dubious sub-system in the first place.

Ok. Why you do it is the same reason we do it.

Because you may need some simple strategies to slow down good grapplers while you are getting on with the business of punching their heads in.

And you don't have ten years to learn things like the snake guard.

Where it becomes an issue is if the instructor uses this idea as an ego feeding method. (And mma guys do this as well)

So that they never want to look like a crap grappler and therefore a crap martial artist and instead change the goal posts.

 

[Hanzou]

|
Quite frankly, I burst the Gracie BJJ bubble here. The Rolles Gracie loss recently versus standard MMA striking... and to say much more sophisticated WC practitioner couldn't stop a Gracie, come on... The WC instructor put up a vid to show some of the versatility of WC which I believe is more formidable against grapplers than the grappling aficionados either realize or admit...

You're forgetting an important point here; Wing Chun/Tsun instructors are purposely teaching this because they feel threatened by grappling for some reason.

And frankly the stuff displayed in the OP is not formidable against anyone. The methodology is terrible because you're attempting to counter a high contact training method with a no-contact training method.

What does that mean?

Simply put, grapplers are training under a full-contact method. They are actually trained in full resistance where a person is attempting to stop them from taking them down. So a Judo guy performing a five point throw in training is a Judo guy actually throwing someone utilizing resistance. Further, that Judoka getting thrown is more aware of the type of throw being used against him than someone not trained in Judo would be. For example, a Judo black belt is more aware of getting caught in a shoulder throw than someone who has never trained in Judo.

MMA and (some) Bjj guys go a step further and add striking to their training. So a MMA guy going in a for a takedown is used to a person full blast punching and kicking him while he goes for entry.

What did we see in that WC anti-grappling video? We saw half-arsed takedown attempts that didn't even make contact, and we saw a bunch of air punches that also didn't make contact. The reaction to those blows were completely staged and silly. At no point are you experiencing an actual takedown, and at no point are you getting a real reaction. That's not going to be much use against someone used to grabbing someone and slamming them down while that person is actually punching or kicking them. Perhaps actual WC is formidable against a grappler, but that junk shown in the video was not.

 

[Vajramusti]

---------------------------------------

Piggy backing witha followup. I dont do videos but I am well aware of dangers from various knds of grapplers. FWIW -here are some photos of two situations witha grappler coming in- middle level and low. The grappler isGreco- Roman all American. He was headed for yje Olympic eliminations till a vcipous knee twist sent him to surgery.
He is fine now and among other things jumps out of panes in the Army.

http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/chum_kiu_form.pdf

http://www.tempewingchun.com/docs/chum_kiu_form.pdf



see particularly photos 2a, 2b and 4a, 4b and 4c

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont do videos. But I dont use the label anti grappling.And I dont stay on the ground if I end up on the ground.

I use chum kiiu and biu gee attacks
until I get up

 

[jks9199]

I have no idea why this thread is suddenly about my training history instead of the topic at hand.

Great question. Let's try to get back on topic, folks.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Quite frankly, I burst the Gracie BJJ bubble here. The Rolles Gracie loss recently versus standard MMA striking... and to say much more sophisticated WC practitioner couldn't stop a Gracie, come on... The WC instructor put up a vid to show some of the versatility of WC which I believe is more formidable against grapplers than the grappling aficionados either realize or admit...

You are about ten years to late. Sakuraba had already burst the Gracie bubble.

Yes bjj can be beaten and beaten with striking.

But nobody is using this anti grapple nonsense like in the OP,s video.

You are using one example to make a huge leap of faith.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have no idea why this thread is suddenly about my training history instead of the topic at hand.

If nobody even pays attention on you, you are ignored and you are nobody. The more people who disagree with you and ask something out of you, the more that you should be proud of yourself.

If a grappler has to spend years of hard training time to develop his anti-grappling skill, I just don't believe that any striker can develop any "anti-grappling" skill without going through the similar training.

Besides the ground grappling, one will need to master the following principles just to be able to deal with a "stand up wrestler". It's not a simple task even just for the stand up game. I'm sure there will be more principles needed for the BJJ ground game as well.

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) - Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) - Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand
吸(XI) - Sticky
摟(LOU) - Outer hook
勾(GOU) - Upper hook
判(PAN) - Trap
削(XIAO) - Sickle hooking
蹲(DUN) - Drop down
跳(TIAO) - Hop
磨(MO) - Spin
轟(HONG) - Herd
摇(YAO) - Shake

 

[Vajramusti]

You are about ten years to late. Sakuraba had already burst the Gracie bubble.

Yes bjj can be beaten and beaten with striking.

But nobody is using this anti grapple nonsense like in the OP,s video.

You are using one example to make a huge leap of faith.

---------------------------------------------Indian concepts of the body is relevant here. Sakuraba was Karl Gotch's student and Gotch did and taught Indian dunds, baitakhs. mudgar clubs, mace and stomach rotations, The best gracie- Roycs's oldest brother did yoga

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Clearly some posters have an axe to grind. I'm simply interested in continuing discussing this topic which is very interesting. Why is it interesting? Because you have respected WC instructors performing clearly bad MA, and it would be interesting to hear WC exponents explain why this is the case. Further, it would be interesting to hear why WC exponents feel the need to create this dubious sub-system in the first place.

|
I can acede to the quality of training criticism. Not all @ MT are so highly trained in grappling. Like me.
|
I found the vid interesting as a presentation of some ideas re the grappling scenario. Not as a substitute for the BJJ program or later progressive introduction of resistance training.
|
Anyway, it's not anywhere near as bad at the Gracie promotion vids promising 'experts' who were completely inept against the sudden incarnation of BJJ / grappling a la Gracies. Shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass / grappling house....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...If a grappler has to spend years of hard training time to develop his anti-grappling skill, I just don't believe that any striker can develop any "anti-grappling" skill without going through the similar training.

|
The qualification I would add is that not necessarily grappling, is the answer to the grapple r....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Simply put, grapplers are training under a full-contact method. They are actually trained in full resistance where a person is attempting to stop them from taking them down. So a Judo guy performing a five point throw in training is a Judo guy actually throwing someone utilizing resistance. Further, that Judoka getting thrown is more aware of the type of throw being used against him than someone not trained in Judo would be. For example, a Judo black belt is more aware of getting caught in a shoulder throw than someone who has never trained in Judo.

MMA and (some) Bjj guys go a step further and add striking to their training. So a MMA guy going in a for a takedown is used to a person full blast punching and kicking him while he goes for entry.

|
In your quote, I took out the objections to the vid; the grappler audience here can slice & dice that.
|
Via reality training, I concur fully about the points you've made above. I've alway been a fan of MMA for 'reality testing.' Even in Judo though, my understanding is they do 'fits' & drills. It's not pure randori....
|
That said, the time & place for full contact / heavy resistance training in traditional karate--there are different approaches to forming a skill base first. I've talked on that elsewhere....
|
I'll look at the WC vid again.... I recognize the import of your stated position above, the WC practioners should too...
|
Edit: Marked you post 'like.'

 

[Hanzou]

|
I can acede to the quality of training criticism. Not all @ MT are so highly trained in grappling. Like me.
|
I found the vid interesting as a presentation of some ideas re the grappling scenario. Not as a substitute for the BJJ program or later progressive introduction of resistance training.
|
Anyway, it's not anywhere near as bad at the Gracie promotion vids promising 'experts' who were completely inept against the sudden incarnation of BJJ / grappling a la Gracies. Shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass / grappling house....

I don't know why you keep bringing up the Gracies, or their promotional vids from the 1990s. No one is talking about them, and no one is saying that Gjj is invincible. In fact, in modern MA, Gjj/Bjj is just one of several grappling systems that has rose to prominence since the first UFC and the rising popularity of MMA.

Clearly it shook members of the WC and other MA communities enough to create utterly bogus and silly sub-systems to attempt to counter it.

However, since YOU brought it up, let's discuss the differences. On one hand you have people actually fighting each other in challenge matches, and the other you have a demonstration where no contact is made.

I would LOVE to to see anti-grappling utilized against a MMA fighter or a grappler. I mean why not? They claim that WC anti-grappling is effective against skilled grapplers.

You see, the Gracies said that their system worked against skilled martial artists, and then proceeded to fight various skilled martial artists to prove their claims. WC anti-grappling can't claim the same thing. So no one is throwing stones anywhere, there's reality and then there's nonsense.

 

[drop bear]

---------------------------------------------Indian concepts of the body is relevant here. Sakuraba was Karl Gotch's student and Gotch did and taught Indian dunds, baitakhs. mudgar clubs, mace and stomach rotations, The best gracie- Roycs's oldest brother did yoga

And by all accounts Karl gotch could also wrestle.

 

[Steve]

Karl Gotch was an interesting guy. Read an article about him a few years back, and my impression is that he would've been a real force in modern MMA. Ahead of his time.

 

[Vajramusti]

And by all accounts Karl gotch could also wrestle.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course- he was a great wrestler

 

[Danny T]

Well I've spent approx. 2 hours today viewing some 'Anti-Grappling' videos. Viewed videos by different instructors but I did not view everything available. Of those I did, in none of them did the instructor/s state anything about anti grappling being effective against a trained grappler. In most there were references that there is always the possibility of a fight going to the ground and one needs to be able to survive long enough to get back to a standing position preferably. In a couple the viewers were even encouraged to get with grapplers and train.(smart thing to do)

That said, what was shown in all of the videos I viewed, the so called anti-grappling techniques were (I'm being kind) poor with many being terrible and completely a waste of time other than looking good to the uninformed. They were presented in a demo form but mostly the actions shown if attempted to be used against an aggressive attacker will mostly fail.