I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[JowGaWolf]

I'd like to check out your videos, but every time I try the link is no good. Did you already take this one down? If so, why?

I just checked and it still plays. I haven't taken it down yet.

 

[JPinAZ]

William Cheung took what he got from Grandmaster Yip, used it to invent an altered system, and then claimed it is actually the only true and authentic system and thus is better than everybody else's.

While I am in no place to argue where GM WC got his TWC from (whether from Yip Man or some from some other source), I find it very difficult to buy that William Cheung simply made it up/invented it. The story of it's origin? who knows (besides GM WC). But, while TWC has clear differences in many areas when compared to most other mainstream Ip Man WC, I also can relate to some of those differences from my experience in my own lineage. Which tells me it is still WC and couldn't simply be made up my GM WC, even if the story of it's origin is questionable by some...

 

[Phobius]

Cat stance (which is similar to one of the Wing Chun stances) is no good for grappling. It's good for other things but not for grappling. Here's the secret to stances that I would recommend Traditional Chinese Martial artists to at least give some thought to especially Wing Chun practitioners. This is something that I learned on my own "You can only retreat as far as your rear leg." [...] Now for Wing Chun practitioners, when you are in your stance see how far you can move backward without first lifting that rear foot. The reason I want you do this is so that you can understand the true distance of your possible retreat when a shoot comes in.

First of all, thanks for the informative post. Understand and respect the wish to hold some information to yourself. This is similar to my own situation.

As for the stance discussion, I will say this. The view I have been taught in terms of cat stance and WT is that this is a desirable stance. Sort of like the stance that would put us in an ideal situation but the problem is that we can not force that stance. Meaning it is very unlikely we will ever be able to remain in that stance for any longer period of time. An unreachable goal but a goal none the less, just like the goal of never being hit.

As for other stances, I am terrible with names, or simply not willing to share full disclosure but what I can say is that gong bu as well as boxing footwork both are part of our studies. Horse stance however is something used mostly to control or steal balance and opponent position, not because it may be limited but because I have not had time to train more on it. Sorry for not explaining it all more clearly.

Now your stament "You can only retreat as far as your rear leg" I will give this some thought, practise it a bit and see if this is infact the truth for me as well. It is a very interesting idea to test and validate. Of course I mean investigating time efficiency of the idea.

One thought on cat stance and having weight on rear leg works both in offensive and defensive movement. Your front leg can become the rear leg for you, it is just a matter of point of view.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As for the stance discussion, I will say this. The view I have been taught in terms of cat stance and WT is that this is a desirable stance. Sort of like the stance that would put us in an ideal situation but the problem is that we can not force that stance. Meaning it is very unlikely we will ever be able to remain in that stance for any longer period of time.

When I get tired I will often move into a cat stance for a short period of time in order to catch my breath. It allows me to fire that front kick a couple of times to keep distance or to disrupt their attack before they have a chance to actually attack. I refer to it as making the opponent reset. The reset delays the attack giving me more time to rest or gives me more time to try to figure out what they were going to try to attack me with. When I say more time I mean 2 or 3 seconds more.

When I do a cat stance, I do it with the understanding that I can only retreat as far as my rear leg, so I don't stay in it long enough for them to figure out how to get past it. I also know that if I'm in a cat stance then my only real option is to pivot to the side, which is probably why Wing Chun pivots into cat they way they do. I could be wrong with that analysis for Wing Chun because I'm basing it solely on how I would have to move if I was in cat with my style. If I'm not in position to retreat a great distance backward then that only leaves the sides as a possible option. I also thought of the environment as it refers to Wing Chun and I was in a McDonalds, a small chinese alley, or places where there are tables then the fighting tactics and stances will change depending on how much space there is to fight. I don't see me doing any of my big punches in a McDonalds. I can't see myself risking breaking my hand on things like tables, walls, counters, and other hard items.

I am terrible with names, or simply not willing to share full disclosure but what I can say is that gong bu as well as boxing footwork both are part of our studies.

No problem. I'm careful of what I say as well. The fact that people are willing to say anything about their martial art style to me ,an outsider, is an honor for me, because I understand that people don't have to share anything about their fighting styles. I personally try to keep my statements general in the sense that what I am saying can be found in other fighting systems and not just my own.

 

[geezer]

...But, while TWC has clear differences in many areas when compared to most other mainstream Ip Man WC ...it is still WC and couldn't simply be made up by GM WC, even if the story of it's origin is questionable...

Yeah, I have no doubt he had contact with practitioners of other lineages and may have borrowed freely. Other things, like some of his flashy Bart Cham Do movements do appear to be of his own invention. Mostly what was made up were his claims to have the only true, authentic WC.

Actually, my point was more directed at Hanzou regarding the lack of any kind of testing like you have in sport martial arts. Without that pressure and "natural selection" process TMA do not adapt, integrate and evolve the same way sport MAs do.

 

[geezer]

I just checked and it still plays. I haven't taken it down yet.

I think it's blocked by the web filters since I haven't left work yet. Please leave it up for a while and I'll check it out when I get home.

Wow, I can still get back in to edit this almost an hour later!?! ...Anyway, I just got home and was able to view your clip. Very convincing response to that shoot attempt. Thanks for providing the video.

 

[Hanzou]

Both. But there is a subtle but significant difference in the claims of these two self promoting narcissists:

William Cheung took what he got from Grandmaster Yip, used it to invent an altered system, and then claimed it is actually the only true and authentic system and thus is better than everybody else's.

Leung Ting just claims to have understood Yip Man's final perspective best, and to be smarter and more talented than everybody else, so his admittedly altered and trademarked system is better than everybody else's.

In this sense, I'd have to say that my old sifu, LT was actually being more honest. Regardless, neither of these guys was improving the WC system the way you describe what happened in BJJ.

Thanks for the more detailed information. That falls more in line with what I've read about the squabbles between the two major branches of Wing Chun. It also helps explain why Ting's student Boztepe and Cheung had that hilarious brawl in the 1980s.

And it also helps explain why guys like Boztepe and Guiterrez created anti-grappling instead of simply cross training in a grappling style. As you said, what they created really shouldn't be considered an improvement.

The BJJ evolution you describe, like the evolution of other competitive sports was the result of new techniques being introduced from a variety of sources and being tested by many competitors in competition and practice. I see no evidence of that kind of scientific testing and development in most TMA. This bothers me.

It bothers me as well. It's one of the main reasons I left karate and began practicing Judo all those years ago. Karate has some interesting concepts, but where do you ever see them being fully applied? You never see a karateka reverse punch someone in the gut so hard that their insides are damaged, but we're led to believe that that reverse punch is the most destructive punch in the world. It's very similar to the one-inch punch, which frankly amounts to a parlor trick.

In Judo, and consequently Bjj, the concept has to work, or nothing else works. If the concept behind Uchi Mata is wrong, no one is going to get thrown by Uchi Mata. How do we know that the concept behind Uchi Mata works? Because we can throw people with Uchi Mata. As you said, it's science pure and simple.

 

[JPinAZ]

..And it also helps explain why guys like Boztepe and Guiterrez created anti-grappling instead of simply cross training in a grappling style. As you said, what they created really shouldn't be considered an improvement...

This is a good point. While I dislike the term 'anit-grappling', there is a difference between WC's answers to grappling and just cross training in a grappling style. Admittedly, a lot of the 'anti-grappling' clips out there are admittedly pretty unrealistic against unrealistic grappling attempts, but this isn't all there is to the WC system. WC's ideas is to 'negate' grappling attempts/range from happening, allowing the WC practitioner to still use all their tools with COG & self centerline intact. Call it counter-grappling or not-grappling if you like, the term doesn't matter as much. In my system a lot of our kiu sau and chi sau methods give some pretty good answers to take downs wrestling & grabbing/grip work.

The idea of just cross training in a grappling art is and option, but IMO is counter to WC principle as it is agreeing to enter into using grappling methods willingly against grappling attempts (basically, grappling), which is a step in the wrong direction for a WC practitioner and counter to WC principle and body methods.

Of course, there is the caveat that it doesn't always work out the way you'd like! So, you do need a good idea & experience for what good grapplers/wrestlers do as well as good training time against them (not just your WC buddy's 'playing the role' of a grappler). In my experience, you don't necessarily need to commit time to becoming a good grappler yourself to deal with grapplers - WC does have the answers. But you do have to put in realistic raining time before it's going to work for you - like anything else!

 

[Jake104]

This is a good point. While I dislike the term 'anit-grappling', there is a difference between WC's answers to grappling and just cross training in a grappling style. Admittedly, a lot of the 'anti-grappling' clips out there are admittedly pretty unrealistic against unrealistic grappling attempts, but this isn't all there is to the WC system. WC's ideas is to 'negate' grappling attempts/range from happening, allowing the WC practitioner to still use all their tools with COG & self centerline intact. Call it counter-grappling or not-grappling if you like, the term doesn't matter as much. In my system a lot of our kiu sau and chi sau methods give some pretty good answers to take downs wrestling & grabbing/grip work.

The idea of just cross training in a grappling art is and option, but IMO is counter to WC principle as it is agreeing to enter into using grappling methods willingly against grappling attempts (basically, grappling), which is a step in the wrong direction for a WC practitioner and counter to WC principle and body methods.

Of course, there is the caveat that it doesn't always work out the way you'd like! So, you do need a good idea & experience for what good grapplers/wrestlers do as well as good training time against them (not just your WC buddy's 'playing the role' of a grappler). In my experience, you don't necessarily need to commit time to becoming a good grappler yourself to deal with grapplers - WC does have the answers. But you do have to put in realistic raining time before it's going to work for you - like anything else!

Good post! I was going to go into a long post, but you pretty much covered it. Lately haven't been in the mood. I'll stick to my nursery rhymes and pointless video post for now..

 

[Jake104]

When I get tired I will often move into a cat stance for a short period of time in order to catch my breath. It allows me to fire that front kick a couple of times to keep distance or to disrupt their attack before they have a chance to actually attack. I refer to it as making the opponent reset. The reset delays the attack giving me more time to rest or gives me more time to try to figure out what they were going to try to attack me with. When I say more time I mean 2 or 3 seconds more.

When I do a cat stance, I do it with the understanding that I can only retreat as far as my rear leg, so I don't stay in it long enough for them to figure out how to get past it. I also know that if I'm in a cat stance then my only real option is to pivot to the side, which is probably why Wing Chun pivots into cat they way they do. I could be wrong with that analysis for Wing Chun because I'm basing it solely on how I would have to move if I was in cat with my style. If I'm not in position to retreat a great distance backward then that only leaves the sides as a possible option. I also thought of the environment as it refers to Wing Chun and I was in a McDonalds, a small chinese alley, or places where there are tables then the fighting tactics and stances will change depending on how much space there is to fight. I don't see me doing any of my big punches in a McDonalds. I can't see myself risking breaking my hand on things like tables, walls, counters, and other hard items.

No problem. I'm careful of what I say as well. The fact that people are willing to say anything about their martial art style to me ,an outsider, is an honor for me, because I understand that people don't have to share anything about their fighting styles. I personally try to keep my statements general in the sense that what I am saying can be found in other fighting systems and not just my own.

I like that you actually post videos and it's not just talk.. It's interesting. Thanks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually, my point was more directed at Hanzou regarding the lack of any kind of testing like you have in sport martial arts. Without that pressure and "natural selection" process TMA do not adapt, integrate and evolve the same way sport MAs do.

I'm only responding to the testing part. I agree that without the pressure of having to fight other styles that any fighting style, not just TMAs will not be able to adjust to the opponents fighting style. Boxing is the same way, they only box against boxers so there shouldn't be any assumptions that a professional boxer will know what to do or how to react when someone starts kicking or grappling. This is why I say it's not just a TMA thing. The only thing I really disagree is that the process is a "testing" process. When I spar against people I'm not "testing" my skills. Instead I'm seeking a deeper understanding of my fighting system and how the techniques should be applied when fighting someone who uses a different system.

It doesn't matter how skill a fighter is. If he/she picks the wrong technique to address the situation then he will either struggle or fail. I may be the only one on this but I gain a better understanding of my system when I'm not fighting someone from my system. This is the benefit that MMA has over TMA experience. This is also why I like Lei tai tournaments over some of the other tournaments where people from the same style fight each other. I think TMA's do a disservice to their fighting systems when they only fight against the same style, especially in a world where MMA fighters have the opportunity to see a variety of attacks.

Very convincing response to that shoot attempt. Thanks for providing the video.

Thanks.

 

[geezer]

...The idea of just cross training in a grappling art is and option, but IMO is counter to WC principle as it is agreeing to enter into using grappling methods willingly against grappling attempts (basically, grappling), which is a step in the wrong direction for a WC practitioner and counter to WC principle and body methods.

On the other hand, when you get comfortable with grappling basics, you might find that they really complement your WC, and in many ways involve common combative concepts. My involvement with the DTE guys like Jake constantly reminds me of this fact.

....you do have to put in realistic raining time before it's going to work for you - like anything else!

Freudian slip JP??? About the time you posted this I looked out the window and it was pouring here and looked really nasty over toward Mesa and the East Valley!

 

[JowGaWolf]

The idea of just cross training in a grappling art is and option, but IMO is counter to WC principle as it is agreeing to enter into using grappling methods willingly against grappling attempts (basically, grappling), which is a step in the wrong direction for a WC practitioner and counter to WC principle and body methods.

I have the same perspective when approaching grappling. I don't want to throw BJJ grappling into the fighting system that I study, because that will just result in me doing BJJ. The Grappling techniques that I use have to be so that I can follow up with something that belongs to my system of fighting.

BJJ does shoots and take downs with the intent of taking the fight on the ground and this wouldn't benefit Wing Chun. Wing Chun has to execute grabbling techniques in a way that allows the practitioner to follow up with some Wing Chun punches and techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I like that you actually post videos and it's not just talk.. It's interesting. Thanks.

Thanks. Hopefully it will help others to look deeper into some of the techniques within their fighting system.

 

[yak sao]

Thanks for the more detailed information. That falls more in line with what I've read about the squabbles between the two major branches of Wing Chun. It also helps explain why Ting's student Boztepe and Cheung had that hilarious brawl in the 1980s.

I trained with Emin for many years. The anti-grappling he developed came from his years of Turkish wrestling.

 

[geezer]

I trained with Emin for many years. The anti-grappling he developed came from his years of Turkish wrestling.

Yeah, what was his Turkish training partner's name... Reza or something? A bona fide champion I heard. Anyway Emin is amazing. People forget that he was barely more than a kid when he beat up Cheung.

 

[Hanzou]

I trained with Emin for many years. The anti-grappling he developed came from his years of Turkish wrestling.

You mean this Turkish wrestling;

The guy in the OP vid of this thread said plainly that the origins of Wing Tsun anti-grappling come from Wing Chun itself, not an outside style. I also find it odd that you believe that it came from Turkish Wrestling when the basis of it is striking your way out of grappling.

 

[geezer]

You mean this Turkish wrestling;

The guy in the OP vid of this thread said plainly that the origins of Wing Tsun anti-grappling come from Wing Chun itself, not an outside style. I also find it odd that you believe that it came from Turkish Wrestling when the basis of it is striking your way out of grappling.

Good points. The first, that the EWTO anti-grappling program is derived exclusively from WT roots and not from any other sources is pure marketing, consistent with the oft repeated claim that WT is an entirely complete art that addresses all ranges and situations. Ha! I wonder how it would work against my brother who recently won a national championship in parma long range target shooting? Try chain punching against a guy who can drop you with one shot at 600 yards!

Second, at the time of this bout, Emin's grappling skills were seriously underdeveloped. I know this from a personal encounter with him. Still he was a very formidable fighter (something I never ever was). At any rate, I believe the William Cheung encounter was one factor that lead him to focus on upping his ground game. The emerging dominance of the Gracies and their BJJ in the late 80's and 90's was another.

At any rate, the WT marketing line remained the same. That doesn't mean that Emin limited himself to that kind of thinking. I do not know how grappling was taught after he broke away and formed EBMAS. Better ask Yak about that.

BTW Turkish wrestling is a bit ...er ...different than any of the grappling arts more familiar here in the west. They use a lot of oil and seem to reach inside each other's pants a lot. Not judging. Just saying that it might not translate so well to MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good points. The first, that the EWTO anti-grappling program is derived exclusively from WT roots and not from any other sources is pure marketing, consistent with the oft repeated claim that WT is an entirely complete art that addresses all ranges and situations. Ha! I wonder how it would work against my brother who recently won a national championship in parma long range target shooting? Try chain punching against a guy who can drop you with one shot at 600 yards!

Second, at the time of this bout, Emin's grappling skills were seriously underdeveloped. I know this from a personal encounter with him. Still he was a very formidable fighter (something I never ever was). At any rate, I believe the William Cheung encounter was one factor that lead him to focus on upping his ground game. The emerging dominance of the Gracies and their BJJ in the late 80's and 90's was another.

At any rate, the WT marketing line remained the same. That doesn't mean that Emin limited himself to that kind of thinking. I do not know how grappling was taught after he broke away and formed EBMAS. Better ask Yak about that.

BTW Turkish wrestling is a bit ...er ...different than any of the grappling arts more familiar here in the west. They use a lot of oil and seem to reach inside each other's pants a lot. Not judging. Just saying that it might not translate so well to MMA.

I had to really look this one up I can honestly say that I learned something new today. CNN actually did a report on it. I looked it up to see what they were grabbing when reaching inside of each others pants. I'm going to agree with you on not translating well in MMA or for any sport where punching is allowed.

 

[LFJ]

Leung Ting just claims to have understood Yip Man's final perspective best, and to be smarter and more talented than everybody else, so his admittedly altered and trademarked system is better than everybody else's.

Even if LT did get everything directly from YM, many of his ideas have much more in common with what is found on the mainland and from YM's earliest HK students, and very little, if anything, in common with WSL's thinking, for example.

WSL never claimed to have received secret or special knowledge. He always just said he taught what he learned from YM. So, obviously there was a big change (simplification) somewhere in the middle, which in my opinion was a massive improvement to the system.

Now, for LT to have returned to ideas that were there and then not there, it stands to reason that he must have learned from someone else who held those ideas, or YM thought him not intelligent or talented enough to learn his later ideas, and so taught him the old, common way. The latter, I find not so likely.

I believe that fighters are born, not made. Either you have the fighter element to you or you don't. Looking at some footage of LT, I'd say he is not a born fighter. So, even if he did learn his stuff from YM, which is debatable, he apparently wasn't given YM's serious fighting philosophy because he wasn't up to it. But I find it highly unlikely YM would go backward like that. From what I understand, he wasn't the type to waste his time with people who couldn't get it.

As for Emin, I definitely see some born fighter qualities in him. It's just a shame he's invested many years of his life to this system of WT and can't easily start over. I think he's held back by some not so great ideas and has been in a position where it'd be very disadvantageous to his reputation to question, explore, and possibly change. But then again, if you're a born fighter, even some less intelligent ideas can some times be made to work for you. In all situations, it really matters how skilled your opponent is.