if you could change a thing or things.....

[dvcochran]

Is a back stance the same as an L stance?

If so, in the Dan-Gun pattern there are knifehand guarding blocks (moves 1 and 3) and knifehand strikes (moves 18 and 20) in L stance.

There are more instances of the same (and different) knifehand techniques in other patterns too, which I can cite if you like?

Yes, I have heard L stance and back stance used synonymously although I suspect weighting is different. I watch a video of Dan-Gun and I think we are back to semantics. I see the knife hand moves you mention and we use them in various forms but I have never seen a spear hand in back stance. I don't see how the mechanics would work.

 

[dvcochran]

I personally don’t see a need to come up with 20 different applications for techniques in poomsae. Part of that stems from the fact that I don’t need to be able to use every technique in sparring/fighting/self defense. The other part for me is that I don’t believe that Taekwondo only includes techniques found in poomsae. No one seems to take issue with this when it comes to kicking techniques, as many kicks recognized as Taekwondo are not found in poomsae.

I include joint locking and some groundwork in my Taekwondo curriculum, but I don’t need to connect everything to poomsae to make it work. I’d rather spend my time practicing techniques and applications without forcing a connection that may or may not be there. For me, there are better uses of my time than reverse engineering techniques because I want my poomsae to have something in there. Having said that, I don’t really care if someone else wants to do that, as long as they’re not high and mighty about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree that there are inherent differences with forms in totality compared to say, chained sparring techniques especially in modern sparring. I see more connections with forms and many SD techniques. What is often missed in the use and benefit of forms is the mental requirements. I feel they apply, and therefore connect to all aspects of a MA that properly teach forms.

 

[pdg]

Yes, I have heard L stance and back stance used synonymously although I suspect weighting is different. I watch a video of Dan-Gun and I think we are back to semantics. I see the knife hand moves you mention and we use them in various forms but I have never seen a spear hand in back stance. I don't see how the mechanics would work.

In that case, yes, semantics.

L stance is 70/30 weight distribution, and:



Not sure how that relates to back stance, but the two look otherwise similar from an image search...

That to me is a knifehand - the 'tool' is the side of your open hand, from little finger (pinky?) to wrist.

A reverse knifehand is from index finger to wrist with you thumb tucked out of the way (is that ridge hand to others?)

Those are used to perform strikes or blocks.


"Straight fingertip" is what I think of when you say "spearhand" - mechanics like a 'normal' punch, but using the fingertips?

That's not used for a strike, but for a thrust (which is a kind of strike admittedly, but different...)



I don't recall seeing one in L (back) stance, but I'm intrigued enough to look now.

We have punches performed in L stance, so I would assume the mechanics would translate to a fingertip thrust?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Semantics, Semantics. - For the Chang Hon system i.e. Dan Gun pattern as mentioned. In General Choi's 1965 Book the term back stance was used. From 1972 text onward it was L stance and parameters while better defined remained with a 70/30 weight distribution. Techniques using the fingertips (among others) are generally "Thrusts" more on that in a moment- and the 3 most common depending on orientation of the palm are "Straight" , (perpendicular to the floor) , "Flat" (Downward) , "Upset" (Upward) . There are 3 basic types of attacking motions (There are more than 3 , but these are the most common, ) Being "Piercing" "Striking" and "Thrusting" . It is explicitly stated that their is overlap in methodology and application, but with regard to "Thrust" the purpose is to "Cut Through" (better word might be "Penetrate") a soft vital area. So, while you can condition the fingertips for hard targets and many demonstrate wood breaks with such, that is not designated as among the optimal application. (I will leave to to others to expand on the terminology as it may apply to other systems. )

 

[pdg]

@Earl Weiss - do you know of a fingertip thrust performed from L stance being demonstrated in any of the Chang Hon patterns?

 

[GreatSayiaman]

In my honest opinion when it comes to TKD as a former practitioner and former Black Belt of the art this is what I would love to see in general with in all organization. First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . 2nd get rid of the point sparring and work on a more practical technical sparring by adding some different style techniques such as throws, sweeps, clinches, takedowns, catches similar to how Muay Thai does it's sparring adds a bit more practical elements within TKD. The last slowing it down with the quick belting promotions within the art as I feel black belts are given out like candy and they should really have a age limit on when you are eligible for a black belt.

Personally this is my take and views on TKD in general and will always have love for the first martial art that got me introduce to the wonderful Martial Arts Community. But changes do need to happen within TKD.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you were able to get the attacker in semi-static position the knife hand pressure point attack might make sense. But at full speed or more so in an unexpected attack, does a knife hand strike make any sense? It's a very narrow surface. I would call the application of a knife hand BLOCK an advanced skill.
I also teach the KH strike as a penetration or crease strike, working its way around blocks and body parts because of its small surface area.

What can I say, other than it works for me, and has in far too many confrontations for me to stop doing it.

 

[pdg]

In my honest opinion when it comes to TKD as a former practitioner and former Black Belt of the art this is what I would love to see in general with in all organization. First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . 2nd get rid of the point sparring and work on a more practical technical sparring by adding some different style techniques such as throws, sweeps, clinches, takedowns, catches similar to how Muay Thai does it's sparring adds a bit more practical elements within TKD. The last slowing it down with the quick belting promotions within the art as I feel black belts are given out like candy and they should really have a age limit on when you are eligible for a black belt.

Personally this is my take and views on TKD in general and will always have love for the first martial art that got me introduce to the wonderful Martial Arts Community. But changes do need to happen within TKD.

Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.

So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.

The stuff you listed are all part and parcel of it - if you think it's not what you want because "meh, it's not self defence" go do a SD class instead.

A move doesn't work? Prove it. I'll bet there are moves you consider impractical that I can make work just fine.

Also - we have age limits for belts as well as minimum terms between gradings, so don't tar all of TKD with the mcdojang label please.

Changes that suit you and make it more what you think it should be certainly don't suit everyone.

 

[GreatSayiaman]

Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.

So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.

The stuff you listed are all part and parcel of it - if you think it's not what you want because "meh, it's not self defence" go do a SD class instead.

A move doesn't work? Prove it. I'll bet there are moves you consider impractical that I can make work just fine.

Also - we have age limits for belts as well as minimum terms between gradings, so don't tar all of TKD with the mcdojang label please.

Changes that suit you and make it more what you think it should be certainly don't suit everyone.

Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.

Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.

 

[GreatSayiaman]

Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.

Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.

BTW I fully respect in what you say about TKD and Kudos to the Belt Age Limit where you train at.

 

[pdg]

Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.

Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.

BTW I fully respect in what you say about TKD and Kudos to the Belt Age Limit where you train at.

Maybe it's more a KKW thing with the apparent focus on the Olympic style of point sparring - we don't spar like that...

The age limits are down to the organisation we're affiliated with, not just the school itself.

If I chose a KKW school instead then apparently I could be almost 2nd dan by now - but where I'm in an ITF school I'm 3rd kup after just over 2 years, and that's taking into account I've graded each time after minimum time in grade...

 

[GreatSayiaman]

Maybe it's more a KKW thing with the apparent focus on the Olympic style of point sparring - we don't spar like that...

The age limits are down to the organisation we're affiliated with, not just the school itself.

If I chose a KKW school instead then apparently I could be almost 2nd dan by now - but where I'm in an ITF school I'm 3rd kup after just over 2 years, and that's taking into account I've graded each time after minimum time in grade...

Not Bad I only knew the KKW Org and ATA that is all. Now I'm strictly a Muay Thai and BJJ guy and within Muay Thai there are no Belts and BJJ I know different art but very hard to get Rank in BJJ. I understand how Dans work how do the Kup work within ITF

 

[pdg]

Not Bad I only knew the KKW Org and ATA that is all. Now I'm strictly a Muay Thai and BJJ guy and within Muay Thai there are no Belts and BJJ I know different art but very hard to get Rank in BJJ. I understand how Dans work how do the Kup work within ITF

Kind of the same as KKW colour belts as far as I know. But there's more than one ITF...

White belt is 10th kup, count down to red/black for 1st kup then into 1st dan BB.

There are minimums between belts (elapsed time and number of classes attended) as well as technical and practical knowledge.

For someone my age (well above any age limits ) the fastest it's possible to get to 1st dan is 3 years 9 months (maybe 4 years now, I heard about the possibility of extending time at 1st kup), but the quickest one I know currently took 5 years.

PM me if you want to know more, rather than derail the thread more...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Stripping out all the stuff you listed would make it no longer TKD to be honest.

So you don't like patterns? Pick another art.

The stuff you listed are all part and parcel of it - if you think it's not what you want because "meh, it's not self defence" go do a SD class instead.

A move doesn't work? Prove it. I'll bet there are moves you consider impractical that I can make work just fine.

Also - we have age limits for belts as well as minimum terms between gradings, so don't tar all of TKD with the mcdojang label please.

Changes that suit you and make it more what you think it should be certainly don't suit everyone.

I'm not convinced forms are inherent to any art. The principles (and the techniques based upon them) make the art what it is. A TKD instructor could teach the art without forms (obviously, probably not within any major organization), and a boxing coach could develop some forms to work footwork and combo's. They'd still be teaching TKD and boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well no it not just the Meh it's not self defense its what I feel is reasonable feedback on what needs to be evolved within TKD within a Whole, Sure there are TKD schools that do have age limits for belts and minimum terms withing grading, But I feel all of the TKD organizations should meet so they can address the issues and give each other feedback about situations they feel they do not agree with.

Like I said I was a former TKD student and I'm belted and certified under the Kukkiwon but these are my personal views and not an attack on TKD as a whole. But to each its own.

It's not really necessary for all - or even most - organizations within an art to agree on those things. Heck, one organization could get all self-defense oriented, while another focused on the Olympic sport/competition aspect, and so on.

 

[dvcochran]

What can I say, other than it works for me, and has in far too many confrontations for me to stop doing it.

I have been having a brain fart. I have been thinking about a spear hand the whole time we have had this conversation. Someone else mentioned watching a Dan-Gun video and I figured out my mistake.

That said, I very much agree that the knife hand is very useful and possibly the most natural block we do.

 

[dvcochran]

In that case, yes, semantics.

L stance is 70/30 weight distribution, and:

View attachment 21530

Not sure how that relates to back stance, but the two look otherwise similar from an image search...

That to me is a knifehand - the 'tool' is the side of your open hand, from little finger (pinky?) to wrist.

A reverse knifehand is from index finger to wrist with you thumb tucked out of the way (is that ridge hand to others?)

Those are used to perform strikes or blocks.


"Straight fingertip" is what I think of when you say "spearhand" - mechanics like a 'normal' punch, but using the fingertips?

That's not used for a strike, but for a thrust (which is a kind of strike admittedly, but different...)



I don't recall seeing one in L (back) stance, but I'm intrigued enough to look now.

We have punches performed in L stance, so I would assume the mechanics would translate to a fingertip thrust?

My apologies, I was having a brain fart throughout the whole conversation be having the knife hand in mind. Amazing how long these senior moments get sometimes. Haha
It got me thinking about other hand strikes/blocks and I created a new post about it. Hopefully I will not pass gas again.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have been having a brain fart. I have been thinking about a spear hand the whole time we have had this conversation. Someone else mentioned watching a Dan-Gun video and I figured out my mistake.

That said, I very much agree that the knife hand is very useful and possibly the most natural block we do.

Now I understand why you said you thought this was a very advanced technique. I let it go without comment, but my immediate response was "Are you nuts? It's one of the easiest."

 

[Earl Weiss]

@Earl Weiss - do you know of a fingertip thrust performed from L stance being demonstrated in any of the Chang Hon patterns?

I cannot think of any off the top of my head. The reason for this question?

 

[Earl Weiss]

First would be take a more practical approach to the art, start to discard techniques that are not practical within a self defense or fight situation as well as discarding the Forms . .

If you only want to do stuff for You don't need a "Martial Art"