if you could change a thing or things.....

[oftheherd1]

If we're not going to do anything to train for it outside of forms, then why is it in the forms? This is my question.



I assume you mean in WTF sparring rules? We teach several head punches in our basic curriculum and just ban them in the sparring.



We cover this at my school in our defense portion. But like head punches, they are banned in sparring (because Olympic rules).



So first I must understand the principles behind it.

As an example, we practice front fall and back fall at our school. The back fall position is essentially on your back, chin tucked in, hands down on the ground, feet straight in the air. When asked why we practice this, one girl explained "it's because our feet are stronger than our head, so if someone punches at our head, we get our head out of the way and we get our feet in the way so they punch our feet instead of our head."

This is what happens when you have someone trying to understand the application of a technique with no understanding of the initial application.

I'd rather have the Master's answer first and then apply my own possible twists and ideas.

Some of this has been the cycle I get myself into A LOT which goes something like this:

STEP 1: Have a question, but don't have a chance to ask it or too embarrassed to ask it
STEP 2: It's been too long and I should know it by now, so if I ask then not only is it embarrassing I didn't know, it's embarrassing I didn't ask before.

Could a spear hand be a little more difficult to block if it reaches a little further than a fist, even if not with as much power? Could it be used against pressure points? Work with that a while.

Break falls are first of all to get one to the ground as safely as possible. Generally they try to spread out the contact with the ground over several points of the body, to lessen one part of the body taking all the force. That is taught in parachute jumping in the military, or at least was, and I don't see how it could be different, except in special units who have parachutes different from mass jumping paratroops. You didn't mention getting one foot back (rare), or your buttocks. You didn't mention slapping the ground with your hands to absorb some of the momentum. Were you just leaving them out for brevity or do you do them exactly how you described them? Do you have a different explanation for sticking your feet and legs up in the air?

If you can translate yourself into a standing position from any break fall, so much the better, and if that isn't taught, you should explore it on your own. But remember you first have to land uninjured to be able to continue defending yourself.

I don't know your instructor. But the instructors who taught me, and my GM, always answered my questions, and if they saw me be doing something wrong, whether I asked or not, corrected me. You should always have a chance to ask questions. I would think the nature of Hapkido instruction should make that very easy. But if not, during a break or after class. Never be embarrassed to ask! Have you ever heard the old saw that the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked? I hope the impediment to your learning is your own ego for the embarrassment, not your teacher's way of responding.

 

[oftheherd1]

I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks perfectly they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!

Maybe a definition of catching is in order. You have provided 1/2 of the answer as I understand it. Even if you aren't an elite level kicker, I would not normally like to stand there and try to catch your kick as in my cupped hand. But I can step back or to the side and grab your ankle dislocate the ankle, knee or hip, or all three. Or I can lift your leg up too high for you to stay on your feet. My best bet is to make contact just as you end you kick, so your power is of less value to you. And as I always say in Hapkido, speed and accuracy are paramount since we so often move into an attack.

 

[oftheherd1]

I enjoyed those videos. Always nice to have new tools in the tool box. I wonder if a couple of those take down defenses might not be legal in his wrestling? I will check.

Thanks.

 

[skribs]

I completely disagree with this! If you train your kicks perfectly they're too powerful/quick to be caught. So the proper defence to a proper kick isn't to catch it but to evade/cover it. I've trained with some elite-level Koreans and there's no way on earth I'd ever want to try to catch one of their kicks!

The kick is very powerful at the foot and shin. The kick is not very powerful at the hip and thigh. If you attack the foot you're in for a bad time. If you attack the thigh you can easily control your opponent.

Let’s start with one then. A simple one. How can you use this motion as a release?

Are you talking about a release from a grab? If so, almost every release I have looks more like a crossing elbow strike or outside block than a spearhand.

Well, I’ll admit I never teach anything in a vacuum, so there’s always at least one obvious application. But can you truly not think of one reason why you’d bring the supporting arm forward while blocking with the other?

I can think of reasons to bring the other arm forward, but not in that exact motion or position.

I don’t. But she’s come up with more ideas than you, apparently.

I think you're missing the additional step that I am doing, which is to reject those ideas which do not make sense. For example, in your question about spearhands, here have been my thoughts:

• To make an impact to the shoulder/chest with my forearm while I perform a sweep with that leg. But if I'm doing that, the motion I use would more likely be a ridgehand, so I rule that out
• To escape a wrist grab. But as I mentioned above, the motion for that is more similar to other techniques
• To trap a hand for the purpose of a wrist lock. But those motions are more similar to a palm block or palm strike than a spearhand
• To reach past an opponent to hook their arms or neck. But that motion would end up being more like a hook punch, chop, or ridgehand strike than a spearhand strike
• To poke into the throat, groin, solar plexus, or to find a pressure point, but that doesn't meet your qualifications of "not a strike" for this exercise
• To tickle my nephew, but that also doesn't seem applicable to this exercise

So I've thought of several ideas, but I've rejected them as the motion, even though it contains an open hand, is not a spearhand.

Like any teacher, our job is to teach you to learn. To figure out ways to use movements in this case. But that requires you to come up ideas on your own. If all you do is parrot applications that you’ve been told about, you’re essentially crippled. If the attack isn’t EXACTLY as described, you’re helpless.

And I've done that with a lot of our techniques. I've come up with plenty of ways to use kicks in new combinations. I'm pretty sure I invented a new kick because I've searched for it online to find ways to improve it and haven't seen anyone else perform it (540 back kick). I've done plenty of things in sparring that weren't directly taught to me. The 540 back kick is one - I came up with it as someone was backing away from me so I jumped and spun around to bring me closer to them for my kick. Using a front roll to escape an armbar in hapkido class was another.

But I can't do this for all of the techniques in the kata. I've tried, but some I just can't figure out the practical application.

There's three other points I'd like to bring to this particular quote:

• I am not talking about only parroting applications. I am talking about at least being trained on the applications.
• Even if I come up with my own ideas, I would like to know the original intent of the technique. This kind of goes into the discussions in general about "hidden" techniques in forms, which were really just because the student didn't have the time to learn all the applications of the kata, so they made up their own.
• Sometimes instruction IS the way to learn, at least as a starting point.

Ok. So what purpose might a fall serve? I can think of a couple without any effort. And for one of them (rolling out of range) this young lady is on the right track. She’s just being hampered (in my opinion) by the silly way you’re being taught to back fall.

Maybe you can think of some practical applications for that fall as opposed to a roll.

I've got a few in mind.

 

[Dirty Dog]

While I agree that the "Textbook" application(s) is but a tool to help you understand there is a good reason for learning only that application, especially at lower ranks. The reason is finite resources. Time, energy, ability to assimilate information. Many students train 3-4 hours a week. The rank syllabus contains a certain volume of information that needs to be learned and performed with competence. Learning and teaching numerous applications for pattern moves expands the volume of material tremendously.

Sure, but again, I'm not advocating teaching 20,000 applications. I'm advocating teaching people to figure out how to apply the concept. Nor am I talking about having a student demonstrate 4700 applications of a technique in their testing.

 

[andyjeffries]

The kick is very powerful at the foot and shin. The kick is not very powerful at the hip and thigh. If you attack the foot you're in for a bad time. If you attack the thigh you can easily control your opponent.

But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.

However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Sure, but again, I'm not advocating teaching 20,000 applications. I'm advocating teaching people to figure out how to apply the concept. Nor am I talking about having a student demonstrate 4700 applications of a technique in their testing.

Nor am I . Lower rank students have plenty to absorb by learning the textbook application(s) , how that helps them understand the beginning position (Chamber) The ending position, and how the technique travels to get there, the angle, distance, height of the opponent / target for the attack or defense, plus of course proficiency and everything else in the syllabus for that rank. Of course all those things will help with other applications, but that is mostly addressed later.

 

[oftheherd1]

But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.

However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.

I think every martial art wants to think it has outfoxed all others. And sometimes perhaps that may be so. But people from other arts can observe and learn just as you can. Also, it sounds like @Dirty Dog tries to counter that with his encouragement to think of different applications of moves in forms. I like that idea.

In the Hapkido I studied we learned many techniques; some are specific to kicks. I have been trying to imagine how a bent knee at the beginning of a kick would affect our defenses. I don't think it would since I think any good kick, if it is to have power and speed would have to camber the kick using both hip and knee. An opponent's speed might if they are sufficiently faster than I am. But faster speed might not if I have gotten to where the kick can't possibly touch me before the speed gets it to where I was. Interesting to think about no matter.

What is the art of the defence expert whose seminar you are going to? I would first guess TKD since that is your art?

 

[andyjeffries]

I think every martial art wants to think it has outfoxed all others.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think that way. I think if we went for a head kick and someone covered well MMA style, then closed the distance and took us down - most Taekwondoin would be in real trouble. I just (currently) see catching a kick as a valid defence. We've had broken hands in our class when people try to block a (non-full contact) kick instead of keeping the fist tightly closed and cover the target - so I struggle to see how intentionally keeping them open to catch lower limbs will help at all.

But I'm always open to learning.

In the Hapkido I studied we learned many techniques; some are specific to kicks. I have been trying to imagine how a bent knee at the beginning of a kick would affect our defenses. I don't think it would since I think any good kick, if it is to have power and speed would have to camber the kick using both hip and knee. An opponent's speed might if they are sufficiently faster than I am. But faster speed might not if I have gotten to where the kick can't possibly touch me before the speed gets it to where I was. Interesting to think about no matter.

What is the art of the defence expert whose seminar you are going to? I would first guess TKD since that is your art?

It's Taekwondo, but I think from having seen him in the past, he's also done both Hapkido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's GM Deuk Moo Hur, of the International Police Martial Arts Federation in Korea - he's also one of a few gentleman defining the Kukkiwon's new self-defence/step sparring syllabus (that was shown in 2016 on the Kukkiwon Master Course and then subsequently at other courses).

It's a private seminar just for me and my students. I'll post back after the seminar to let you know what he advocates and how I feel about it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think that way. I think if we went for a head kick and someone covered well MMA style, then closed the distance and took us down - most Taekwondoin would be in real trouble. I just (currently) see catching a kick as a valid defence. We've had broken hands in our class when people try to block a (non-full contact) kick instead of keeping the fist tightly closed and cover the target - so I struggle to see how intentionally keeping them open to catch lower limbs will help at all.

But I'm always open to learning.

When I studied TKD I once tried to block a kick that was coming so fast I didn't have time to close my hand. So I was really interested in why anyone would want to do that. Then I began studying Hapkido, and realized, it's called grappling.

As I mentioned, you aren't using a spear hand to try and block a kick, or even hand strike, head on with full force of your hand against the full force of the opponent's kick. You block, side step, or in some way not be where the kick or strike is going to be. Then you strike some part of his hand/leg, or grab it. I think I mentioned that I did learn one strike close to what you are talking about. It was a step back to be out of range, then a reverse knuckle strike to the pressure point just above the ankle. But usually we would strike some other part of the leg or body.

It's Taekwondo, but I think from having seen him in the past, he's also done both Hapkido and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It's GM Deuk Moo Hur, of the International Police Martial Arts Federation in Korea - he's also one of a few gentleman defining the Kukkiwon's new self-defence/step sparring syllabus (that was shown in 2016 on the Kukkiwon Master Course and then subsequently at other courses).

It's a private seminar just for me and my students. I'll post back after the seminar to let you know what he advocates and how I feel about it.

Thanks for willingness to share. I have a sneaking suspicion that I will recognize some Hapkido in what he will teach you, not all, but some. It will be interesting to see.

 

[wab25]

I'll also add that I wouldn't teach a back fall the way you describe. If you're falling backwards, it would be much, much smarter to continue the movement so you roll backwards and come back to your feet. Because ending in the position you describe is a good way of saying "go ahead, kill me." I'm also willing to bet that it's a lot easier to understand why you'd roll back to your feet when you're knocked down than why you'd be doing some funky headstand thing.

I agree that if you are falling backwards the back roll is probably the best way to deal with it, for the reasons you stated. However, there are some throws where you invert uke, with both his feet in the air, and drop him straight down to his rear. In some, uke is in free fall traveling straight down, upside down with his head at hip level... In other cases, ukes legs or hips are being caught and held up by tori. If you are thrown backwards, with some altitude, causing your feet to be higher than your head, a back roll is out and you need to learn how to land from that type of fall.

 

[Buka]

On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.

If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..

 

[Gerry Seymour]

1 -Cultural inertia. They're in the forms because they've always been in the forms.
2 - Some people (if only a few) will choose to do the necessary conditioning for these techniques.
3 - A spearhand strike requires a lot of risky conditioning. But a spearhand is only a strike sometimes. Go think of some other ways it could be used. Let's start with just two. Tell us what you come up with.



Nope. Finding applications (beyond the obvious) is one of the ways you learn to understand the principles.



She's ahead of you, because she's at least trying to understand, rather than have everything spoon fed to her. And I'd always rather work with someone who is thinking.
I'd tell her "ok, let's try that" and then when it doesn't work (obviously) I'll ask her to think of another reason why being able to fall is good.
I'll also add that I wouldn't teach a back fall the way you describe. If you're falling backwards, it would be much, much smarter to continue the movement so you roll backwards and come back to your feet. Because ending in the position you describe is a good way of saying "go ahead, kill me." I'm also willing to bet that it's a lot easier to understand why you'd roll back to your feet when you're knocked down than why you'd be doing some funky headstand thing. I say that because I have never, not even once, had a student who didn't intuitively understand that not getting hurt when you fall, and getting back to your feet quickly in a fight, are both Good Things.

Different brains need different approaches. Some folks do very well working from form and figuring out on their own. If they get something wrong, they're okay with that and can easily learn a different approach. This girl has come up with something pretty off-the-wall, and if she had gotten there from my teaching, I'd have to wonder what I'd done wrong. Yes, she's thinking, but she doesn't seem to be following key principles in her thinking (which can be good or bad - depending where it leads her). Other brains do their best thinking by starting from a model. In this case, the form doesn't necessarily present a model for application, except as a spearhand strike (which you've already discussed).

Some of my best students have been people in that latter category. They needed a solid starting point, but then could come up with thoughts, questions, and applications I didn't expect of their level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.

If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..

I'm trying to picture that, and failing. Not sure I want to try to search for a video of feet and buttocks....

 

[Buka]

I'm trying to picture that, and failing. Not sure I want to try to search for a video of feet and buttocks....

Picture it? If you have a floor handy...

 

[wab25]

Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not go to 7:10 and watch the next throw )

Extra credit if you recognize one of the two gentlemen doing that set of techniques... is is quite well known in the martial arts world.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of.

If you hold on one of your opponent's legs (don't release that holding) and sweep/hook/break his other leg, he cannot do any rolling.

 

[skribs]

On the subject of falling backwards - kicking your heels to your buttocks will stop backwards momentum, stopping the roll over effect. Good for covering if they want to jump on you and great if you need to draw a weapon.

If you've not played with it, especially after reading this..

So, what I've come up with:
1. If your opponent has hold of your arm, rolling through the take-down might be a good way to break free, or a good way to get your wrist, elbow, or shoulder dislocated. In the later, being able to fall is a good thing.
2. Some of our later techniques start with a fall, like a scissor sweep.
3. Sometimes when you take someone down for a chokehold, you don't want to roll as you will give up your position.
4. Sometimes there isn't room to roll out.
5. Sometimes the nature of the throw has downward momentum and there isn't momentum for a roll.

The main purpose of the fall is to learn how to backfall without hitting your head, and how to stop your momentum. Even if you do roll, you still want to tuck your chin and keep the back of your skull from slamming into the ground.

 

[Buka]

Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not go to 7:10 and watch the next throw )

Extra credit if you recognize one of the two gentlemen doing that set of techniques... is is quite well known in the martial arts world.

I miss him. One of the coolest guys ever in the Arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

keep the back of your skull from slamming into the ground.

In Chinese wrestling, one will use one of his arms as soft pillow to protect the back of his head. He will also uses the other arm to protect the head in case of his opponent drops elbow or knee onto his head.

Instead of using the arm to do the break fall, a Chinese wrestler likes to use leg to do the break fall.