If attacked, should you finish the job? Why or why not?

[Hyper_Shadow]

you cannot re-engage or otherwise become the attacker

I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.

'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.

Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah, the fire and surety of youth .

I can't say that I agree with justifying a 'first strike' philosophy. For me, that's a very dangerous road in legal terms and is also a very grey area moraly.

Even if you are certain beyond any doubt that violence is about to erupt, striking first removes any chance of avoiding it and almost guarantees either an escalation or legal consequences.

 

[YoungMan]

"Strike first" has been the centerpiece of our foreign policy for eight years now and look where it's gotten us.

 

[terryl965]

YM what do you meanby the statement?

 

[jks9199]

I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.

'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.

Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.

Personally, I'd rather have enough of an understanding of the law that I can defend myself or my loved ones without either going to prison or finding myself handing over my hard-earned belongings and paychecks to someone else...

But then, I sometimes have silly thoughts like that.

There are indeed times to act pre-emptively; see THIS thread for a much more detailed discussion. Another is HERE.

You're also under a significant misunderstanding about the real nature of violent attack. In the real world, few of the bad guys will warn you; in fact, many practice how to be unobtrusive UNTIL they strike, or how to distract you. Yes, you can and should be alert and aware of your surroundings, which will let you recognize danger -- often before it strikes. But the simple truth is that we all experience moments of distraction for lots of reasons. The ogres wait and seize those moments, not the moments when you're fully alert, eyes wide open and ready for it.

 

[YoungMan]

Terry,
What I mean by that is that our foreign policy for the past eight years has been guided by the notion of using our military to strike first rather than in self defense of the nation.
The end result is a world community that hates us and a loss of moral credibility on our part.
But I don't want to derail this thread into a political discussion

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

You're also under a significant misunderstanding about the real nature of violent attack.

Forgive the fire of youth but I've seen a lot of heads stamped on in my lifespan. It's gruesome and sickening. There are a lot of night clubs where I live and as I've experienced it most violent confrontations I've seen or experienced have actually built up over the course of a night out. I've seen people out for trouble and you can spot them coming a mile away. I'll concede that they will be unobtrusive as much as possible and try not draw attention to themselves or they'll distract you and use all manner of tricks. So there are times when you are going to be on the 'back foot' to start with.
But isn't that what the actuality of combat is? No one situation is the same. It's all a state of flux with billions of factors changing and evolving in miliseconds. You can't group different situations into different boxes because they each are seperate yet the same.

Ah, the fire and surety of youth .

I can't say that I agree with justifying a 'first strike' philosophy. For me, that's a very dangerous road in legal terms and is also a very grey area moraly.

Even if you are certain beyond any doubt that violence is about to erupt, striking first removes any chance of avoiding it and almost guarantees either an escalation or legal consequences.

I dunno about a grey area in moral terms (I like to think of myself as an upstanding citizen and despite my falls and follies I wouldn't provoke an avoidable situation) but legally if you're under threat and you've got one or more people threatening to kick your head up the street you are perfectly within your rights to act first. Of course as MAists we're at a legal disadvatage because we are also entitled to use only necessary force. But as I've said, if I feel my life is in danger all force is necessary force. I can see where everyone else is coming from but from personal experiences being too much of a pacifist is just as bad as being overly agressive. People (especially when drunk or on drugs) can take that as weakness and it provokes attack even faster.

To quote Geoff Thompson (for the second time today), 'Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six'.

 

[Chitmunk]

First I would like to ask why you didn't place this topic in the general forum, it is a great discussion piece.What term of "finish" is definitely a good question. Personally I would view it as what stops the incident as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort nessecary. If you are encountered by someone who will most likely kill you if you don't do likewise to them then I say do what is nessecary, but no more. Of course you being the one attacked makes you the judge of what is nessecary, obviously you ending up seriously injured (or worse) would not be an ideal outcome. Also doing too much, or not enough leaves you open for legal backsplash. As someone trained in the ways of balance, and the ways of violence it has to be up to you to determine how much affort consists of finishing the job, and remember to be ready to back your actions before the law because you are trained.And remember a good dependable can of mace at your side will very rarely let you down ;^P... Mace: designed to bring out the wuss in EVERYBODY!

 

[Lynne]

First I would like to ask why you didn't place this topic in the general forum, it is a great discussion piece.What term of "finish" is definitely a good question. Personally I would view it as what stops the incident as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort nessecary. If you are encountered by someone who will most likely kill you if you don't do likewise to them then I say do what is nessecary, but no more. Of course you being the one attacked makes you the judge of what is nessecary, obviously you ending up seriously injured (or worse) would not be an ideal outcome. Also doing too much, or not enough leaves you open for legal backsplash. As someone trained in the ways of balance, and the ways of violence it has to be up to you to determine how much affort consists of finishing the job, and remember to be ready to back your actions before the law because you are trained.And remember a good dependable can of mace at your side will very rarely let you down ;^P... Mace: designed to bring out the wuss in EVERYBODY!

Hi Chitmunk,

I could have placed this in the General Forum I guess. Also, jks says there are numerous threads along this line in the self-defense forum. Maybe there are too many like this one, lol.

 

[Brother John]

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking him in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

Something like "Finishing" is VERY situation-specific. There is NO generic answer, but there are maybe some guidelines worth consideration:

1st off: There MUST be a marked difference between you and the attacker. TRUE, you must have some degree of "killer instinct", but that doesn't mean you need to have "killing intent". Study well the difference, it's very meaningful. My suggestion: ONLY "Finish" in order to ensure that you're safety is assured. Also: you very well may have to validate your rationale in court, but it's better to be alive in court than to have fallen victim to a rapist.

2nd off: a strike to the groin isn't nearly as effective as it seems you believe it is! In a high adrenaline situation NEVER count on even a strong, well placed strike/kick/stomp to the groin to 'end' ANYTHING. It seldom will. I'm not saying never, but I've seen many altercations (I'm a correctional officer and have seen lots of fights, many with killer-intent) in which men have been kicked full force in the groin and gone right on with the fight, full strength and undetered. One case in particular, the guy was about 20 years old and not all that athletic, yet after getting kicked HARD in the boys TWICE, he continued to fight and ended up winning. Later he was taken to the hospital for the injury he took to the groin, yet During the fight.........nuthin!
Attacks to things like joints (knees) and eyes, throat.....MUCH MUCH more effective!! They don't rely on "Pain Compliance"....they are mechanical "finishers".
3rd: Common sense!!
Get a new bag, one that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with martial arts at all. Save that school one for tournaments or visiting other schools....etc. SAME for the T-shirt. Wear it to the mall to show support ((and free advertising for your dojang)) and to show school pride, but DON'T wear it down that alley. The reason I say these things? Because criminals and drunkards need NO provocation to do some pretty STUPID and heartless things!! But when given a provocation, they WILL target it. Don't give them a reason. I'm not saying this to imply you shouldn't be proud of being a martial artist or for being from your dojang..... you SHOULD be!!!! But there's a difference between holding your head up high and advertising that you are a "Fighter".

In the end, the issue of "finishing" is very situation specific!!
If a guy steps out of the bar and has a "mean" look on his face and says "Hey Lady".....and you kick him in the knee and punch him in the throat, don't count on ANY luck in court!
But when the chips are truly down and you believe that your life or the sanctity of your body is in jeopardy.....do what must be done to achieve safety and peace again!!!

Your Brother
John

PS: I can relate!! During my teen years I worked out at a dojang that had two bars near it, one three buildings to the west and one five buildings to the east. The "East" one was the one that I had to ride my bike past going to and from the classes. It was a "Biker" bar. The other was pretty much known as THE meeting place for the local KKK idiots.
........nice........:jaw-dropping:

 

[Brother John]

"Strike first" has been the centerpiece of our foreign policy for eight years now and look where it's gotten us.

No doubt!
An extremely hamstrung Al-Qada
a Few less murderous, genocidal dictators
and democracy in a country that could destabilize the middle east, and through our dependency on foreign oil....destabilize the rest of the world!

It's gotten us 'safer'.



Your Brother
John
PS: you are right though, this is WAY off topic.

 

[SamT]

I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.

'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.

Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.

So the whole "Never strike first" and "Defend only as needed" mentality of most martial arts (or at least TSD) doesn't matter if your adrenaline filled body thinks that someone's a threat to you?

I have to say, that's quite hot headed and immature.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

This is an interesting thread...
To be honest, I didn't have time to read the entire thread so I may be repeating some things that have already been said, but here goes...

In most cases, men are stronger (physically) then woman. If you are training to use brute force as opposed to understanding technique and kinesiology, you will loose in a street confrontation.

The most important thing to understand is that Martial Arts are also "Martial Science". Understanding anatomy and how to effect it is crucial. If you simply Punch, Strike or Kick as hard as you can without knowlege of "Specific Vital Targets" you are wasting your time and effort.

If the attacker has a "High Pain Threashold", simply striking him in a general area is just going to "Piss Him Off". Strikling multiple targets effectively is crucial.

You can have all of this great knowlege in place and have trained the correct techniques for 20+ years, but if you have not developed the "Kill or Be Killed" mental attitude, and you haven't trained with full force, you won't be able to respond and deliver successful tactics when caught by surprise.

If, in your training, you never get impacted with serious force and the first time you are impacted with serious force is when the stranger that intends to Rape, Robb and Kill you catches you off guard, you will go into shock and be dead...

There is an old saying that we use in training ALL OF THE TIME:

If you are afraid to get hit, you are going to get hit!!!

If your first respose is to back away from the attack with your arms up in a defensive position with your body leaning away from the attacker, causing your spinal allignment to make you off balanced, you will be on your back in a heartbeat and it will be over for you before your defensive tactics ever get started...

Is this posting harsh, hard to read and leaving you feeling weak and volnerable??? If your answer is YES then that is good. Read it over and over again and then get back into the dojang with a new understanding and realization that you have to improve your thaining and training methods to prepare you for reality.

Too many martial arts school, regardless of system of nation of origin have created curriculum that are teaching technique physically, but not developing the correct mind-set. You are NOT doing any student a favor by going easy on them. If you are NOT challenging your students on all levels you are setting them up for failure.

If you are the instructor and you are yourself questioning your own ability to survive an attack right outside of your school, you need to up your game.

If you are interested, call me directly and I will provide you in detail, what you need to move you forward...

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that the problem that many of us encounter is how to bring more realism into our training. In many cases, the question of whether to "finish the job" or not is never an issue, since many people have never had the realistic training necessary to even do it.

 

[jks9199]

I think that the problem that many of us encounter is how to bring more realism into our training. In many cases, the question of whether to "finish the job" or not is never an issue, since many people have never had the realistic training necessary to even do it.

On that particular issue... Check out Training At the Speed of Life by Kenneth Murray; it's all about SAFELY bringing realism into training.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

So the whole "Never strike first" and "Defend only as needed" mentality of most martial arts (or at least TSD) doesn't matter if your adrenaline filled body thinks that someone's a threat to you?

I have to say, that's quite hot headed and immature.

Yeah I can be quite hot headed and I certainly am immature, however not when I am risk of physical harm. The whole never strike first thing as far as I remember in my training has only ever come from Shotokan's Karate Ni Sente Nashi. Personally I'm a realist, regardless of the art and it's moralities. If I had to throw everything moral away just to save a life I would and that I think is more important than anything. And don't underestimate the effects of adrenaline on your body and your mind. It will always try to take you over the edge if you have to fight. Training to control adrenal stress is all about stepping back from the edge.

Believe it or not I'm quite the peaceful individual, as I've said if something is avoidable then avoid it. If not, then don't lose and ensure noone else is going to be at risk. The only way to do that is to finish your opponent to make sure they're unconscious or in so much pain they don't want to fight anymore.

 

[Kaygee]

My Sah Bum Nim is a really "nasty" instructor. And when I describe him that way, I am not saying it a derogatory manner, I mean when the guy grabs you, you feel it, and he knows how to hurt you. He passes that knowledge on to us.

When I first started knife defense, my Sah Bum Nim was showing me one......the one I am referring to starts with the attacker thrusting the knife UP towards you. The defender does a two fist X low block and jumps his body out of the way and grabs hold of the knife. Then you kick the attacker in the groin with your right foot while holding on to the knife. You then get under the arm, spin it around and stab the attacker with their own knife right in the ribs..........

That's all fine and dandy, but then, to my surprise my master said "and after that"

Whoa!......"After that?" Is there really an "after that" after you have stabbed your attacker in the ribs?
My master's response was, if the guy is trying to kill you, then you do what you have to do. He could be hopped up on drugs or something.

He has shown me/us some really crazy things....how to break arms, legs, dislocate shoulders, even break necks. Most of the shots that he shows us to do are yuk soo do's and soo do's to the corroded artery and groin strikes are one of favorite.

He has always told us that if someone is dumb enough to attack you, finish them. Nearly every single one of the self defense moves/one-step sparring moves that we practice end with some sort of punch to the defenseless attacker, (they are defenseless because you put them in that position) I am sure it is a punch that does have the potential of killing your opponent!

As a martial artist though, trained with this knowledge, you also have to know when to restrain yourself and when to take it to another level. If I am ever attacked, I am going to do exactly what my instructor says to do....

"NEUTRALIZE THE THREAT"

That may mean one punch to the face or one side kick to the ribs....or it may mean a punch in the ribs and then a dislocation of the shoulder....who knows? But you should know how far to take it. A trued martial artist knows that when he becomes the attacker, then he is no longer defending himself.

Just do what you gotta do and get the hell out of there. I doubt I would ever run from fight...one of the ten articles on mental training is "never retreat in battle"........but I wouldn't stick around to smash the guy's face in or do any 'unneeded damage" to them either. It's like Star Wars....it's easy to turn to the dark side, so you have to be careful!