I was asked to set up a basic...

[JR 137]

She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop.

Getting born in the state of Mississippi
Papa was a copper, and her mama was a hippie

Please don’t name your daughter Dani California. It won’t end well. Trust me.

Edit: oh yeah, your experiment would be cool. Let us know how it goes. In the name of research and all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You both maybe right. I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool. I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment. She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop. I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone. If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."

It's more of a question of how long do you have to teach her. I know people who have taken martial arts for almost 4 years and they still can't kick correctly. The only thing that I've seen truly work is footwork. Everyone makes improvement with footwork. For me personally, it's my footwork that keeps me out of a lot trouble. Footwork should begin the moment a person realizes danger closing in.

I train both pre-attack footwork (avoiding or drawing out the time it takes for someone to attack), defensive footwork (defending against a sudden attack), escaping foot work (escaping an attack). attacking footwork (fighting back). These range in difficulty but all are important.

The best example of pre-attack footwork is how animals leave the scene before the predator actually gets a chance to attack. It involves awareness and footwork. Sometimes the footwork is running right away and other times it's more subtle where a person flees without looking like they are fleeing. To the attacker is should appear as if his prey some how keeps moving out of range. The difference is that the "moving out of range" is done on purpose and not by chance.

A human example of this, isn't done so much for threats but is often done to avoid homeless people and drug users walking around begging for money. This is something you may see if you work in the inner city. People will often cross the street at first sight and from a distance. This behavior should be applied to threats. Don't wait until the threat is in the personal space. Address it from a distance, use your feet to move your body out of harms way before harm exists. People tend to ignore the warning signs, when it comes to self-defense. Denial usually sets in, and the attackers will often use that period of denial to close the gap.

Here's a real life example: Her body naturally picks up the warning signs (you'll see her give a startle movement) but she ignores it, or doesn't process the signs as danger. She also gives away distance by cutting that corner too close.

Here's another one.

Here's the way my mind works. If someone triggers those type of responses in me then I immediately try to create some distance. The distance helps with 2 things.

1. Tells me if you are a real threat or if I'm overreacting
2. Creates better distance for me to react to and defend against an attack.

In the case of the old man, he could have simply move to the other side of one of those cars until the guy left the area or place the parking meter between him the the guy he assumed was going to attack him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Everyone has their priorities. To join my program, nails have to be cut short - more an issue for grappling, obviously. That does limit who will join.

What? You're telling me you don't like chucks of flesh scratched off you and to have multiple scars from someone who isn't considerate enough to cut their nails? Man, you are strange lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What? You're telling me you don't like chucks of flesh scratched off you and to have multiple scars from someone who isn't considerate enough to cut their nails? Man, you are strange lol.

I know. A personal weakness.

 

[drop bear]

I really think you are projecting. If you look at virtually any self defense school, like the KM one I showed earlier, this one: Fist or palm, which is the better strike for self-defense?, this one: Jiu-jitsu Sensei: Open Hand Strikes vs. Punching with a Closed Fist or countless others, say that, especially for women, a palm strike is often the better choice, especially if you are striking the head for a host of reasons that I won't repeat because I think the articles speak for themselves. That is also my personal experience. As one example, I have seen people become "combat ineffective" because the opponent zigged and the punch meant for the nose hit the forehead instead.

Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.

Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.

And if you throw a palm heel and it hits at a bad angle you can wristlock yourself so you still have to be careful where you land the thing.

Otherwise if you are Baz Rutten palm heel all you want. But he was also one of the hardest strikers in the UFC.

I work with a girl at the moment who is just unstable and on a bond for assaults at the moment. She wouldn't even dream of throwing open hands.

She does do well in street fights though.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack. What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment.

Two examples of a blank slate instructor and a realistic understanding of an. Had he ever been in an situation with multiple attackers or played "man on the bottom" as a kid. (kids game where boys will try to pile on top of one person, until that person can't escape or whines like a little cry baby. lol. ) Then he would know that his scenario is not realistic and the techniques that are being used aren't realistic in the context of trying to maintain your footing. You don't want your self-defense students to walk away with a lack of understanding of the reality of the dangers you refer to.

This is a better approach

The reason I show this is not to pick on the instructors but to highlight that they were probably students once and what you see is what they learned as students about self-defense.

 

[Juany118]

I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack. What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment.

Two examples of a blank slate instructor and a realistic understanding of an. Had he ever been in an situation with multiple attackers or played "man on the bottom" as a kid. (kids game where boys will try to pile on top of one person, until that person can't escape or whines like a little cry baby. lol. ) Then he would know that his scenario is not realistic and the techniques that are being used aren't realistic in the context of trying to maintain your footing. You don't want your self-defense students to walk away with a lack of understanding of the reality of the dangers you refer to.

This is a better approach

The reason I show this is not to pick on the instructors but to highlight that they were probably students once and what you see is what they learned as students about self-defense.

Environmental awareness is actually a big part of my situational awareness portion. Street lights? Broken sidewalks or ones in good condition? How clean are the streets themselves? Broken glass? This aren't only important in terms of if a fight starts but many can be red flags that you should have your head on a swivel.

 

[CB Jones]

This is pretty much all you need to teach.

If nothing else you should include the cucumber part.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.

Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.

And if you throw a palm heel and it hits at a bad angle you can wristlock yourself so you still have to be careful where you land the thing.

Otherwise if you are Baz Rutten palm heel all you want. But he was also one of the hardest strikers in the UFC.

I work with a girl at the moment who is just unstable and on a bond for assaults at the moment. She wouldn't even dream of throwing open hands.

She does do well in street fights though.

Your talking about those who know/train to punch though. Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch. Once that happens you are fudged and, simple biology, an untrained woman, due to less dense bone structure then add on longer nails, jewelry, etc is far more likely to injure themselves punching.

This is not about creating a fighter. It's not about "taking out the opponent" for the win. Its about giving people tools, in a relatively short period of time, that allow their definition of "winning" being they created an opening that allowed them to escape. Run to the nearest bodega, dial 911, to the taxi etc. Part if that is limiting self injury.

I think we have very different views of what self defense is. Maybe that's the problem.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is pretty much all you need to teach.

If nothing else you should include the cucumber part.

Make sure you have a lawyer on stand by lol. That particular scene always gets me. So the victim has 2 free hands in which to rip the genitals, but the preferred option the victim takes is to use the mouth. lol.

 

[drop bear]

Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.

Really?

 

[drop bear]

This is not about creating a fighter. It's not about "taking out the opponent" for the win. Its about giving people tools, in a relatively short period of time, that allow their definition of "winning" being they created an opening that allowed them to escape. Run to the nearest bodega, dial 911, to the taxi etc. Part if that is limiting self injury.

So you are going to model your system off women who loose fights.

I understand the open hand stuff then.

 

[Juany118]

Really?

Yeah really, when hand injuries we're involved of course. The intact person took advantage of the fact their opponent couldn't hit them anymore.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah really, when hand injuries we're involved of course. The intact person took advantage of the fact their opponent couldn't hit them anymore.

Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.

Can you show me where these fight stopping hand injuries happen at all. Let alone is this common practice.

 

[Juany118]

So you are going to model your system off women who loose fights.

I understand the open hand stuff then.

Now you are just being obtuse. First I corrected myself and clarified that it was if/when hands wrists were injured. I am basing it off of the totality of circumstances. At Max a 16 hour course with specific goals. I am not going to tell the women "change your lifestyle and cut your nails and lose the rings." I am not going to waste time teaching them how to simply make a fist and then properly punch. That would take up the entire course and be a waste of time because just knowing how to punch isn't self defense

Facts...

Palm strikes work.

People can win, and have won, fights with palm strikes. All you have to do is look at old Bas Rutten videos and watch how many KOs he got with a palm strike to the head.

Why did Bas do that? they werent wearing gloves at the time and a broken hand on a skulls means he will lose.

Palms are easier to teach to someone with no training (no need to train proper fist formation and wrist structure), though potentially harder to teach someone who already is a trained punched. A palm can also be taught in a shorter amount of time.

Yeah sure if I was starting my own dojo I would teach punches, hand conditioning etc. This isn't that kind of thing. It's a 10-16 hour self defense course, not setting up a martial arts school man.

 

[Juany118]

Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.

Can you show me where these fight stopping hand injuries happen at all. Let alone is this common practice.

Okay I saw slapping, hair pulling, grappling, someone slapping their hand sideways with a closed fist (that was interesting) some kicking. Pikachu was the only one that even tried to really punch and she connected solidly once. Which btw is another advantage of a palm strike (please see the links I already posted) a punch is actually harder to connect with properly as well. The speed bag test is a good demonstration of this.

So the video was a non sequitur and can actually be argued to prove my point. If you don't train to punch you can't and if you don't have time to train to punch learn something else.

Cheers

 

[Buka]

This is pretty much all you need to teach.

If nothing else you should include the cucumber part.

It's 11:43 t night here. That was the topper of a really good day.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.

Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.

And if you throw a palm heel and it hits at a bad angle you can wristlock yourself so you still have to be careful where you land the thing.

Otherwise if you are Baz Rutten palm heel all you want. But he was also one of the hardest strikers in the UFC.

I work with a girl at the moment who is just unstable and on a bond for assaults at the moment. She wouldn't even dream of throwing open hands.

She does do well in street fights though.

For me, it's a matter of what they can learn quickly. Starting students (for me) don't get punches right away, so I equip them with fast-development tools first. What I do for them is similar to what I do in short courses. I personally much prefer punches for most of my strikes, and open my hands to hit hard targets hard. My students tend eventually to follow that same preference (as you'd expect), but I start them out with what works more quickly most often.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack. What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment.

Yep. I think we (people in general) often don't want to seem scared or nervous, so we don't adequately listen to that little alert going off in our brains. We walk past someone thinking, "Something about that guy bothers me." Yet we don't change our behavior often enough. Small changes like you're talking about are pretty easy to make, once you decide to make them. Eventually, they become not-quite-conscious reactions.

Two examples of a blank slate instructor and a realistic understanding of an. Had he ever been in an situation with multiple attackers or played "man on the bottom" as a kid. (kids game where boys will try to pile on top of one person, until that person can't escape or whines like a little cry baby. lol. ) Then he would know that his scenario is not realistic and the techniques that are being used aren't realistic in the context of trying to maintain your footing. You don't want your self-defense students to walk away with a lack of understanding of the reality of the dangers you refer to.

This is the kind of stuff that drives me batty. That kind of thing can be useful as a study of principles of working against structure, but it's too often demonstrated and trained as a solution to multiple attackers. Those guys aren't attacking (they are standing still, no intent in their actions). Even if one of them was, it'd be a Hollywood situation (henchmen holding the hero while he gets punched), not a likely attack.

This is a better approach

The reason I show this is not to pick on the instructors but to highlight that they were probably students once and what you see is what they learned as students about self-defense.

I like that last guy quite a bit. I try to take that same kind of skeptical view of the typical SD techniques. I know a few I learned that I'm fairly sure wouldn't work on a drunk guy if he can still stand without help.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Environmental awareness is actually a big part of my situational awareness portion. Street lights? Broken sidewalks or ones in good condition? How clean are the streets themselves? Broken glass? This aren't only important in terms of if a fight starts but many can be red flags that you should have your head on a swivel.

And, unfortunately, damned hard to really train in the dojo. We can create some bits to help develop the habit, but mostly it's on the student to work on this.