I need to say my piece

[FieldDiscipline]

Kailat, a great post. I said almost exactly the same things just yesterday. One of my favourite rants actually...

 

[MarkBarlow]

Tomiki Aikido is the only major aikido system that endorses competition. Tanto Randori or, knife sparring, is one of their two forms of competing. Initially, when they first tried this, you could choose to always be the knife attacker or the empty-hand defender. Very quickly they found that they had to swap up. One round you're the knife, the next you're the defender and they only score the defender. Seems the knife always wins.

We use chalk on our practice blades and it's always an eye-opener for folks who think they have decent knife defenses to see all the chalk slashes on their dogi after each session.

 

[SageGhost83]

The OP hit it right out of the park with his assessment. More techs makes the average joe think that they are getting their money's worth, and it makes the instructor look more knowledgable. When it comes to self defense and life threatening situations, KISS is definitely the best in my book. Although, if you are Billy Bad-*** and you can pull off that complicated stuff in the moment, then more power to you.

 

[Mark Lynn]

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid) as in all self defense. Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do. WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring. ANd u know what? From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT" If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit. DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once. TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

So why am i writting this? Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

Good points on expecting to get cut. However I believe the emphasis you have on knife sparring or knife dueling can be counter productive to teaching self defense. Knife to knife sparring is actually more like dueling (with swords in the old days) and not something that statiscally people are likely to get into today.

Your rules about what to do when confronted by a knife are great, do you do those type of self defense against a knife scenerios. I mean like setting out objects and having the person be confronted with an aggressor with a knife and have to grab weapons of opportunity, wrap their arms with a coat etc. etc. Knife to knife sparring has it's place but I think knife defense against empty hand should take presidence.

Mark

 

[kailat]

Wow, coming back to this topic after a while.. LOL forgot I actually posted it.

Thanks for the comments. When preparing for a "sparring match" whether you use a aluminum or soft training knife the intent in which we use, is moreso to try to advance to the actual encounter. RUN at all cost. We've done scenarios w/ 3 on 1 and one of the three has a knife, to all three having a knife and the single guy being unarmed. Trying to find holes in the group attacking him and using the run the opposite direction as escape. Also using the one person back against a wall.. this makes it more agressive. just different scenerios to mix it up..

Find the weakest link in the group attacking you and go for him first... Use his knife and hand to defend yourslef as you move out of the crowd and make a HOLE to run in.

As its been stated if someone wants to kill you with a knife, chances are he's gonna have a premeditated plan and do so..if not hurt you really bad. AWARENESS in 360*degree cirlce is the best defense. Watch your surroundings and those that surround you. Watch for body language.. Sometimes you don't even have to be a target to get injured if your in the middle of someone elses situation..

The best advice for self defense is simple awareness.. Watch your back at all times...

My first priority in any argument is watching his eyes, and his hands first and foremost if ever confronted... Funny cause this past weekend, was at a local bar with some high school buddies. Had a little "block party" in our town for the kick off of summer celebrations.. My buddy from HS has always been a quick to fight individual and don't care who u are... he just one of those guys.. we all know or have friends like him right? Well I went to the restroom and as I re-entered the room he was starting some crap w/ this guy for just looking at him wrong.. I am like "jesus" here we go... LOL... I saw this guy and my bud start to swell up and I got in the middle to seperate them and I swear I dont' know how i seen it, but I saw this guy pull back to swing and I just pushed my buddy and ducked my head in the right moment not to get hit...LOL... it was a close call...Luckily others grabbed him before he got his butt stomped... I took my bud outside and calmed him down..Just simple awareness keeps your head on...

So back to the original post, SURVIVING a blade attack really relies on your ability to recognize the attack and how to deal with it, abruptly.

When I say using your jacket /shirt etc. wrapping it around your arm for a quick diversion if anything may buy you alot of time, if you have it to buy.. And yes we train using this scenario as well...

 

[tarzan]

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!
!!!

COBRA KAI!!!! never say die.

anybody anybody

seriously though, good point!

 

[dbain]

You fight like you train....

This is absolutely correct. And headgear gives you a false sense of security and teaches, much like tapping drills, a measure of feigned competence that simply isn't there when you get into the real world.

Pop in a mouthguard, do it in street clothes, with street shoes, aluminum knives (because you don't miss getting stabbed with an aluminum knife. You can miss a soft knife. Bruises teach, rubber bounces back) and actually GO AT IT. Dojo training is wonderful, but is no substitute for combat training in as real a situation as you can make it without using live knives.

I have a basic premise for learning how to fight, nowhere is it more applicable than with knives: If it didn't hurt, you didn't really learn the lesson. Pain is the most effective, and fastest, teacher of all.

Dealing in knives means you will get cut, probably badly. The goal is to make sure the other guy is cut worse than you are. Never enter a bladed confrontation expecting to come out and drive home. Expect to call 911 as you're bleeding from whatever happened or, at the very least, drive yourself to the hospital to get stitches. If you walk away with something you can use band-aids or gauze yourself for? GREAT! But that should be presumed to be the exception and not the norm.

As for situational training in terms of approaches or hidden-knives, you should presume that any encounter is an armed encounter, most notably because you yourself ought to be armed. This aspect of Silat is the basis for understanding combat- always presume a conflict is lethal because of what you don't see or what you haven't seen yet, so end the conflict as quickly as possible.... With whatever means necessary.

The last thing I have to say is on mental preparation. Prepare to kill with that knife. If you're going to get into combat with a blade, understand what it is for: Killing. A blade serves no other purpose than to kill your opponent. You may choose to employ it with a lesser degree of hostility, but that is a choice you may not be able to make in the split second between the start of the aggression and your reaction. Prepare yourself to see blood. Lots of it. Some of it will be yours. Make sure he bleeds more, and faster.

Don't get into ANY confrontation you don't have to. If there's an exit, TAKE IT. But if you don't, understand the consequences and the actions you have to undertake. Hesitation to do what you need to survive will kill you far easier than the other guy will.

Devon

 

[tshadowchaser]

The winner of a knife fight is the one who leaves alive

I agree with that statement
If you deal with knives and practice with live blades you will get cut eventually. If you are in a knife fight you most likely will get cut a few times. Learning how to get cut the least and in areas of your body that cause the least damage is important. Multi-faceted pretty looking techniques are not needed, but the simple most direct ones are. Learn to survive, learn to disarm and destroy what is coming at you

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Alright, obviously the cost can be prohibitive but using shock knives (or tasers) is always fun and adds a dose of reality.

As for why everything has to be so complicated now I days, I blame it on consumerism. People want something new all the time and aren't willing to just "practice till perfect" the same old drills.

Now for my Rant: "My#aa%#rgh, nur@rrrn, warra 1010011 ga ga ga!" :soapbox:

 

[chinto]

look, a sentry removal type attack you will not survive, not if you do not detect it before it gets to you. ( that is kinda the idea behind that kind of thing, kill them quietly.)

that said if attacked by a knife and you see the blade, do what you got to do
survive the attack.

THE WINNER IS THE ONE STILL BREATHING.