[I]"Food Fight"[/I] On WMAC forum

[Mao]

I must apologize to those who were there and to those who chose to go there to see the mess that the food fight left. I probably let my passion rise too much. I do realize that most of us are trying to carry on, propagate, or continue the art that Remy left us in the best way we know how. I also realize that martial arts in general has more than it's share of egoe's that are at times fragile at best. I try not to be fragile. There is a song titled "The Warrior is a Child". At the end of the day, most of us still need gentleness and caring. That sums it up. As has been noted, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. What matters is how we treat each other. Heck, I treat Tim o.k., that should speak volumes! Anyway, I've moved on.

respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell
Modern Arnis of Ohio
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It seems that you guys are obsessed with me. What's up with that?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Mao

I must apologize to those who were there and to those who chose to go there to see the mess that the food fight left. I probably let my passion rise too much.

respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell

Dan,
There is no dishonor in passion. And food fights are fun. Especially if you shower afterwards. Looking forward to meeting with you at the 2003 Symposium, if not sooner, and downing a pint or three with you.

Tim,
No obsession. In fact, there is a song I like to think of and sing to myself in the shower when I think about the "Tim Hartman Rehabilitation Project."

"To dream the impossible dream..."

All in fun,
Dan

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Thanks DA for that wonderful mental image..you in the shower....the bill for my keyboard (which recieved my late night snack) will be in the mail shortly....


shudder shudder shudder.
:rofl:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Thanks DA for that wonderful mental image..you in the shower....the bill for my keyboard (which recieved my late night snack) will be in the mail shortly....


shudder shudder shudder.
:rofl:

Kaith,

What got me, was the fact that shower in 'Tim' were in the same sentence.



Rich

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador

I'm glad that Mr. Knuttel is now in on the situation!

The thread in question is:
http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000171.html

I especially direct everyone's attention to the July 07, 2002 06:27 PM post by Dr. Barber (I don't think I can link directly to it); see also his July 08, 2002 11:53 PM post. Dr. Barber, would you consider putting those messages, edited for the change of context if you think it desireable, up here? They contain many truths about the Professor's unfortunate aversion to controversy and dealing with difficult situations, and the very many incarnations of the "best and brightest" we have seen in Modern Arnis.

[JB] OK.... let me see if I can duplicate the posts for you. But do you really want that fight over here?

There is considerable discussion of the belief that the Professor wished for his grandson to succeed him as the Grandmaster (eventually).

[JB] Yeah, that one is going to generate some serious thoughts.
I take no position on the matter but for more detailed and accurate information you would have to contact Datu Kelly Worden, because that information was contained in one of his posts.

The thread contains an argument with several proponents that--to oversimplify--states that the true students of the Professor were the ones who were rarely around him, and that (many of) those who were seen with him often were weak students. To be honest, I find the argument self-serving. Going off in one's own direction is fine and is in fact its own sort of tribute but let's call it what it is. There are also lots of claims from lots of people in that thread that they have secret information that will soon be revealed. I doubt that it will be convincing to many people, whatever it is in each case. The issues of who is/was and is not/was not active/a renegade are common in the thread.

[[JB] The arugement might be self serving, IF the person making it were in a position to contest for the leadership role, however since the writer is a "lifer" in the military, I doubt that he is seeking to be a recognized leader within any martial art system.
Thus the arguement from that writer is his opinion and it should be judged against your own experiences within the Modern Arnis context.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[arnisador]

I wouldn't want the heated discussion here but I did think that your posts I cited contained a great deal of factual information that would be worth having here.

Their thread seems calmer now?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Anyone can say what they want, and every group has someone who knows a PC well enough to print up whatever they wish.

Get them on the floor, and lets see em move, and teach.

It was said months ago that theres a lot of pieces in this puzzle, and that it would be nice if they could put the differences, egos and agendas aside and just show off Remys art.

I said it along time ago that it would be nice to see all the Datus and Motts and senior students of GM Presas in one venue, together, on the floor.

You can look at this as a 'put up or shut up', you can look at it as a 'blending' or a 'sharing' or an exploration of the evolution of the art.

Or look at it this way.... its a chance for you to show your stuff and shine. For a brief moment a spotlight is going to shine in this direction. Isn't that worth it, especially to honor the one who gave you all so much?

:asian:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador

I wouldn't want the heated discussion here but I did think that your posts I cited contained a great deal of factual information that would be worth having here.

Their thread seems calmer now?

OK, here are the two posts with just some minor editing for spelling errors.

Originally posted by BRAM: (Bram Frank)
Datu Kelly, "Super Dan"...you both know how I feel about you guys...
And you both know I have no illusions about or aspirations about who's on first..
not my place...

Hello Bram, I can agree with you on both counts and I share your perspective.

[Bram]AS for my comments on RENEGADES..
chuck that purity crap out the window,,
I use Renegade in the highest respect for the Professor..And I would have expected you Datu to stand up for that,,You've known that forever.. and you're one of the biggest Renegades we've got..
You and several others all have done as Professor and Remy has done his whole life..as Remy Presas the man, or as Professor Presas the Grandmaster Of Modern Arnis..
Stepped outside the box..
Remy was always the Renegade,,he walked and stepped to his own drum beat,to a vision he extended with all of us..

Brambo, you have identified a significant problem within the multitude of Modern Arnis students, they are followers and they have never tried to step outside of the box. Therefore, they have never developed a vision of their own. They do not know how to hear their own drummer! They want a leader, someone that they can follow. In lieu of a living Professor Presas, they will accept living in the past, while idolizing the past when they had their leader availible to them.

[Bram]As he said for years ..this is the Art within your Art...make it your own..Do not worry about others..Do it...

Bram, let's look at your paraphrase of what Professor often said once again... 'do it for yourself'! You have noted a special class of Professor's current and former students, whom you have labeled "Renegades"; and the distingushing feature of each person that you named is that they each have moved 'outside of the modern arnis box'. Each of the people that you have named took the basic concepts of Professor's art and built on it, molded it to suit themselves without violating any core principles of Modern Arnis! They were not afraid to be innovators. They followed the real exaamples of Professor Presas, rather than being content to merely mimmick movements and drills!

[Bram]Because of others..as you state in your post drove a wedge between you and Remy. over the years..and made it uncomfortable to be there.... That I understand...

And everyone needs to set their passions aside for a few moments and re-read very carefully what all of the others have written on this thread. No one has lied! Everyone has told the truth as he saw it and understood it. Here is the core problem... Professor made a number of statements over the course of his teaching life here in the States and he created several titles that I am personally aware of:
Modern Arnis Commissioners, Datus, Technical Assistants, Black Belt Society, Proteges, MoTTs and the co-GM.

Given that listing alone, isn't it obvious that there is going to be a very long, drawn out set of fights, posts and threads?

[Bram]...I will forever live with not seeing him before he died...
It will haunt me..and I probably will never forgive some of those who got in the way..
You guys know whom I mean..

Why would you allow that to "haunt" you, Bram? Professor lied about knowing you, denied your training with him, in spite of the fact that he stayed at your home when he was doing the Florida Camps!

[Bram]Datu, you know the situation in JKD and my references to that situation and in the Renegade chpater I Predicted that this would come up..As Dan talks of Kenpo and other similar situations....That those who try to stay within the box would try to say this is the way..the gospel of Arnis..As in JKD , each party or point of time of Bruces training , thinks they own the truth..A fact you point out is sheer stupidity and you show the progression and loyalty to the truth in your Reegade JKD tapes..with Jesse and Taky's blessing...

And this exactly where the proposed 2003 Modern Arnis Symmposium comes into play. Let's put all of that past garbage about titles and ranks behind us! That was yesterday, when Remy was alive. It is a new time, a new day has dawned and we ALL have to move forward without Remy!

There is no turning back to the past if one wants to view the future. The Renegades are the future. The idea that we can somehow hold on to a "pure Modern Arnis" as taught by Professor Presas is a seductive illusion
that will prove too powerful for some to resist. It is always so much easier to wax poetic about the pleasures and joys of the past. It is also an admission that some are afraid to face the future without the icon imagry of Remy Presas.

[Bram]There is no purity in Modern Arnis..no Professor taught this specific way at this time so that's the only way to the truth,,,
nor is it an endorsement of who's on first and who gets what...
Modern Arnis was and is an evolving Art..Remy said on tape and in seminars, he was just beginning to understand the art.that after all these years he was still earning and changing..the mans own words..

Pretty hard to have "purity"..in a stylist sense..the only purity is that of respect to the truth within the principles of the art.. to seeing the change and growth..
Bram, you are no illusionist! The truth will not be stated any better than you just did as quoted abovee.

[Bram]I know the old saying..Remy told me many times to ignore what others say..to just do it..to continue to grow, to extend the boundries of the Art..

And therein lies the problem that is tied so closely to a major personality flaw that was part and parcel, vintage Remy Presas. He would NEVER face down someone making negative comments about another Modern Arnis Instructor. Nor did he take his own advise and ingnore the negative comments that some people made about others. That is why the "golden boys' were created and fell with astounding regularity. And as I read Datu's (Kelly Worden) post about Remy naming his grandson, Carlo, as the next GM of Modern Arnis, as I read that Remy awarded his grandson his own uniform and belt, I chucked because it now obvious that ALL of the MoTTs have 'fallen from grace'!!! And it will become all the more plainer that the "golden one" ride of the MOTTS, including Delaney and Schea, is over. Remy followed true to form. And wait until the article hits the IKF publication and circulation. There is quite a bit more to be revealed.... and it is not my place to say more than that at this time... just wait and read people, wait and read!!!

[Bram]As he told you..
Datu: I remember when we both sat outside the box for the others inside the box were jealous or were upset that he encouraged us to do our own thing, to grow....

But, did Remy stand up and tell some of those others to shut their mouths and follow your lead because you guys were doing what he wanted everyone to do... "Make it for yourself!"! Private encouragements need to be backed up from time to time with public words of encouragement and support! And you never got that public statement of support did you Bram? And if I am on the correct page, Kelly did not get that public statement of support either, nor did Tom Bolden nor Richard Roy, nor Dan Anderson; however nearly everyone rallied to support and reaffirm support for Remy Presas, didn't they? And how was that loyaly repaid over the long haul of time?

[Bram]AS with you, as with Dan...
NEVER have I ever waivered in my respect for the art, the man or for the future of Modern Arnis..
NEVER have I forgotten or missed giving Remy the credit for my training...
NEVER have I taken stance against him..
NEVER have I stopped teaching Modern Arnis..
NEVER have I ever claimed to be part of any succession..
But I stand by what I wrote... As he originally told me to do..

My point exactly! Let's get together at the 2003 Symposium and let's share the art of Modern Arnis as it has NEVER been shared before in time. Let's get to know one another in a face to face manner. Everyone will have to make their own decisions, but there is one fact that can not be disputed... The original, founding GM Remy Presas, is no longer with us. Now the question is do some of the people that he left behind in this life have the courage to move forward and develop "the art that is within their art"?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

The second post that you asked for was a reply to the comments of Guro Dan McConnell (Mao on MartialTalk.com)
is as follows:

>Mr. Barber,
>It would appear that you revel in turmoil. >Your post smacks of disdain for the IMAF, >inc.

Hello Dan,
Lets start at the top and work on throught to the bottom. I did not create the turmoil nor do I have any great interest in going through it with or without you. Like it or not, this stuff is the results of several decisions made by the late Professor Presas. It is consistant with the way he did things earlier in his life when he was healthy. Even in the best of times and under a different set of circumstances there would have been some discontent and conflicting claims. That seems to be the nature of the " martial arts organizational beast" after a system grandmaster dies.

It is very apparent to me and others who are willing to look squarely at the truth about Professor's personality and behavior over the long haul of time, that he formulated this problem, because he created titles almost at a whim to resolve a dispute without taking a firm directive hand. Over the years that I was active in studying with Professor, he created IMAF Commissioners, then Datus, Technical Assistants and a Black Belt Society. Then after I ended my formal association, although we did talk by phone at least once or twice a year and I did attend a couple seminars in Buffalo so that my newer students could have a chance to work with him, he created Proteges, MoTTs and the co-GMs.

Do your research Dan, talk with the long time people like myself who have been there and been through multiple changes with the man. Take some time to talk with the people who were his "golden boys", then were knocked from their pedestals and later "re-hibilitated" into the good graces and called "my good friend" by Professor.

The MoTTs are merely the newest incarnation of the "love-hate-reloved" cycle that was typical of Professor. I am reading from both earlier and later pages of life with Professor and the promotion of his grandson Carlos, to be his designated successor means that the MoTTs had fallen from grace. It fits the pattern and when the article mentioned by Datu Kelly is published there will be more surprises and information. It is not my place to reveal that information, but understand that I know what is there!

You can read "disdain" for ther IMAF, Inc. if you wish, I have none and if I did it would most certinly matter. And it would matter because it would go to heart of intent and motive. That we are writing and reflecting on this thread is a significant part of the article by Dan Anderson. It is a recognition of the problem and a warning that it does not have to follow the "nastiest course", if people are willing to step back and think about what has already been seen and heard. When multiple titles and contridictory statements are made, is it any wonder that there would be turmoil? Neither you nor I created that situation, but you have chosen to venerate the man beyond all necessity. He had his strengths and weaknesses. Let's be straight up and honest. Let's tell it like it was and is. If that is disdain in your view, then so be it and I am sorry that you feel that way, but it is your choice to make.

[DM]I thought your proposed symposium was to bring together modern arnis, however, that depends on which forum one reads. It sounds, on another forum, like you would like to see people "put up or shut up". This doesn't sound like a warm gathering of the modern arrnis community. Either way is fine, but which is it?

It is both Dan! A lot of people are now really free to come together to talk with one another, trade ideas, share techniques and discover things that Professor taught to some but necessarily to others. It is an opportunity for people to realize that they share more than they have previously realized. Some people will understand in a direct and factual way that there are numerous ways to articulate the art of Modern Arnis. There will be an opportunity for people to meet and work with others whom they would have or may already have "blown off" because they still had Professor as the bedrock of their art. Well, he's gone! The 2003 symposium is a clear and compelling opportunity to finally discover the the expanded potential held within Modern Arnis. For the first time many more people will truely be able to ...make it for themselves... they will have the opportunity to discover how some others have developed the art within their art.

Let's cut straight to the chase, Dan. I was doing and leaving Modern Arnis before you ever got involved. I left as a Lakan Tatlo, before you had earned your Antas Apat ranking. Does that mean that I am better than you at the art? NO! It simply means that I have a longer history with the art and Professor. I studied the art with two men who were at the 2 week camps, then the one week camps before the training wennt entirely to weekending.
My teachers studied the art almost from the beginning of the introduction of Modern Arnis to this counrty in 1975. I put in three to four nights a week as a WHITE BELT student and came up through the ranks of the Fighting Back Institute, under Sensei/Guro Don Zanghi, begining in 1981. Were you studying Modern Arnis in 1981, Dan?

I hosted camps and seminars for Professor. I attended camps and seminars with Professor beginning in 1981. I was appointed to the position of Personal Representative of the Grand Master in 1987. and I shared that position with Datu Tim Hartman, until I chose to move away from the Professor. I KNOW where all of the local organizational IMAF skeletons are hidden and I KNOW for a fact that Professor had some difficulty with loyalty.

In a personal, face to face meeting, I might detail some of that information.... but in the meantime you need to think very carefully about what I have related above and the numerous titles that Professor has conferred in the past. Then you will have a better understanding about how and why the 2003 Symposium can be beneficial. It will bring some, if not most of the people who attend together to explore the art from different perspectives and everyone will be more or less on an equal footing, for the first time.

As for the "put up or shut up" that co-exists within the 2003 Symposium concept - what is yin and yang all about - you are an experienced martial artist and instructor, how in the world can you have push without a pull? The MoTTs directly or indirectly are claiming that the art evolves around tapi-tapi and that it is the epitome of the Modern Arnis System. Well, my worthy friend, there are those of us who did not quite understand how a drill can become the pinnicle of the art! This is a classic case of the need to be shown... come show us non-believers the error of our ways!

The essence of the 2003 Symposium is that it COULD, it MIGHT, serve as an opportunity to put the newer ideas against the older ideas and teachings of Professor. Yes, there is a "put up or shut up" aspect to this Symposium, but as I have written quite often and very openly, there is a time for people to stand and deliver... that time may very well be in July 2003!

It is also apparent that you do not always read very carefully before you post... I respond to people as they post and comment. My tone shifts and changes in response to what has been written and the tone in which I preceive it to be stated. The written word is less than perfect, but I do have enough command of the English language to understand what I have read, 'most' of the time.

The 2003 Symposium is designed to be a gatherinng of people who have studied and or intersted in Modern Arnis. It will not answer all the questions or end all of the disputes. On the other hand can you put together a better program or put forward a better suggestion? If you can, go for it! Maybe you might want to host a 2005 Symposium.

[DM]Why does what the MOTTS do or don't do hold so much interest for you?

It is very hard to have a interest in something when the people that I have contacted have never responded and that was before the idea of the Symposium came up. I doubt that I will hear from them now and I did write directly to Dr. Schea, inviting him and/or the MoTTs to participate. Damn hard to have any interest when a month later there there has still not be a reply. At least Jeff Delaney and Lisa McManus were considerate enough to respond to my invitation.

[DM]None of them, including Dr. Shea have ever considered themselves a grandmaster, hence, the whole "Carlo" issue has no bearing on them.

Come on, Dan, get real - ONLY Jeff Delaney and Dr Schea were appointed to the position of co-GM, why in the world would any of the other MoTTs make such a bogas claim? I have never said that they made that claim, but on the other hand, Dr. Schea has not dismissed or discounted the title publicly... not the best decision.
And of course the announcement of Carlos is going to have an impact on the IMAF, Inc. leadership as well as Jeff Delaney; but I will let you figure one that out!

[DM]They weren't "riding", they were learning. It would be nice if all the apparent jealously, disdain, or whatever you call it would go away.

Yeah, it would be great if politics and discord could be brought to an end. Now, let's return to reality. I have no illusions about the Symposium bringing all of the Modern arnis Players under one GM. It will not happen, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. The good news is what could develop from the Symposium is that many of us can learn from one another.

Speaking of working with one another, maybe you should visit us in Buffalo, this weekend and participate in the camp. It could be a mini-preview of some of the things that could be seen at the Symposium. Since PG Tom Bolden and Datu Tim Hartman are going to be presenters, so why not add a third person who has offered to be an instructor at the Symposium. I can adjust the schedule if you are willing to participate. It's your call. Let me know if you will be there.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[arnisador]

There's more discussion of some of these issues at the Uechi-Ryu website.

 

[family man]

I am new to the discussion but have read some and am a little confused. Who are all the players since I don't have a program? I have attended Grandmaster's seminars before but I don't know many names. What is the point of all the argument; I want to learn to be a better arnisador. Who should I go to in order to learn, since there is no longer a Remy Presas who is teaching the art he founded? I don't like to waste time or energy so can someone help me sort out the names, titles, and so on so I can get on with my training. If I try to attend a seminar from each so I could sample each instructor I would go broke and feel like I was spinning my wheels alot. Tell me what you think and how you can help me.

Thanks

RODNCO

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Please see this thread for the contact information of those who we've found.

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?&threadid=1010

:asian:

 

[family man]

Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused. I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on. I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art. What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach? Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck. This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.

RODNCO

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Politics aside, I've heard good things about the following US organizations
Tim Hartman - (I admit bias here as I'm a student of Tims) - New York - Also does extensive knife work
Kelly Worden - Professional Knife maker. - Washington - extensive knife work.
Presas Family - Have been giving many well recieved seminars across the US.
IMAF Inc (Randy Scheas group) - Are also refered to as teh Masters of Tapi Tapi - Extensive stick knowledge.


In Germany, look up Datu Deiter. I believe his is the largest Arnis group in Europe.

Each of the above also has a network of schools and contacts in various areas who can help you find somewhere to train with.

If you are looking for a -personal- recomendation, give Tim Hartman a try. He's often doing seminars all over the world, so you should be able to locate him easily.

:asian:

 

[Icepick]

UNBELIEVABLE!

I disappear for a few weeks, and no one can get along. I will be setting up the first "Modern Arnis Sensitivity" seminar. Details to follow...

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by family man

Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused. I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on. I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art. What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach? Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck. This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.

RODNCO

Rodnco,
MOTT = Master of Tapi-Tapi - this is a title given from Prof. Presas to 7 people (Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, Gaby Roloff, Jim Ladis, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith and Brian Zawilinski) roughly one year prior to his death. See the IMAF, Inc. web site for the description of the title. This title is independant of numerical rank and per the IMAF website, supercedes numerical rank. This is a point of dispute amongst many Modern Arnis old timers.

Datu = chieftain, leader. This is a title passed on from Prof. Presas to 6 people that I know of (Shishir Incalla, kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, Tim Hartman, Dietter Knuettel and David Hoffman) over the years. This title is also independant of numerical rank. I have seen no written data that this title supercedes numierical rank.

Renegade = a description by Bram Frank of a Modern Arnis player who has no organizational affiliation and has followed Prof. Presas' path in using his principles and so on to develop their own knowledge of the art.

Co-GM = Co Grandmaster. This might be a reshifting of the term "Co-successor" which was given to Jeff Delaney and Randi Schea. Only Jeff Delaney is using the term Grandmaster (of Modern Arnis) at the present time. This is another point of dispute amongst Modern Arnis practioners.

Senior Master/Junior Master - Prof. Presas gave out this title to several of his students. The Junior master title was given to Dieter Knuettel and (I might be mistaken onthis one and if so it is my error) Michael Bates. The Senior Master title was given to Rodillo Dagaoc, Roland Dantes, Vincente Sanchez of the Philippines and to myself in the US.

The other terms such as "IMAF commissioners" and "black belt society" I do not know. As to the title relating to the ability to teach, find a teacher you can really relate to is my best advice. Then, go to the Modern Arnis 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, NY to see the best fo the best actually teach.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by family man

Well now that I 've seen the extensive list I feel slightly more confused. I don't seem to have a good hold on all the titles, such as; "renegades", "black belt society", "IMAF commissioners", "datu", "MOTTs", "co-GM", and so on. I have been to a couple of arnis seminars and now that Grandmaster Presas has died I want to continue learning from someone who is teaching his art. What do the above titles mean and how do they relate to someones skill and ability to teach? Who holds the above titles so that if I may seek them out I will know what to expect from the seminar and if I am getting the most bang for my buck. This art is really getting me hooked but I want to go in the right direction so as not to waste time and energy.

RODNCO

Rodnco,
MOTT = Master of Tapi-Tapi - this is a title given from Prof. Presas to 7 people (Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, Gaby Roloff, Jim Ladis, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith and Brian Zawilinski) roughly one year prior to his death. See the IMAF, Inc. web site for the description of the title. This title is independant of numerical rank and per the IMAF website, supercedes numerical rank. This is a point of dispute amongst many Modern Arnis old timers.

Datu = chieftain, leader. This is a title passed on from Prof. Presas to 6 people that I know of (Shishir Incalla, kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, Tim Hartman, Dietter Knuettel and David Hoffman) over the years. This title is also independant of numerical rank. I have seen no written data that this title supercedes numierical rank.

Renegade = a description by Bram Frank of a Modern Arnis player who has no organizational affiliation and has followed Prof. Presas' path in using his principles and so on to develop their own knowledge of the art.

Co-GM = Co Grandmaster. This might be a reshifting of the term "Co-successor" which was given to Jeff Delaney and Randi Schea. Only Jeff Delaney is using the term Grandmaster (of Modern Arnis) at the present time. This is another point of dispute amongst Modern Arnis practioners.

Senior Master/Junior Master - Prof. Presas gave out this title to several of his students. The Junior master title was given to Dieter Knuettel and (I might be mistaken onthis one and if so it is my error) Michael Bates. The Senior Master title was given to Rodillo Dagaoc, Roland Dantes, Vincente Sanchez of the Philippines and to myself in the US.

The other terms such as "IMAF commissioners" and "black belt society" I do not know. As to the title relating to the ability to teach, find a teacher you can really relate to is my best advice. Then, go to the Modern Arnis 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, NY to see the best fo the best actually teach.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson



Rodnco,
MOTT = Master of Tapi-Tapi - this is a title given from Prof. Presas to 7 people (Jeff Delaney, Randi Schea, Gaby Roloff, Jim Ladis, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith and Brian Zawilinski) roughly one year prior to his death. See the IMAF, Inc. web site for the description of the title. This title is independant of numerical rank and per the IMAF website, supercedes numerical rank. This is a point of dispute amongst many Modern Arnis old timers.

Datu = chieftain, leader. This is a title passed on from Prof. Presas to 6 people that I know of (Shishir Incalla, kelly Worden, Rick Jornales, Tim Hartman, Dietter Knuettel and David Hoffman) over the years. This title is also independant of numerical rank. I have seen no written data that this title supercedes numierical rank.

Renegade = a description by Bram Frank of a Modern Arnis player who has no organizational affiliation and has followed Prof. Presas' path in using his principles and so on to develop their own knowledge of the art.

Co-GM = Co Grandmaster. This might be a reshifting of the term "Co-successor" which was given to Jeff Delaney and Randi Schea. Only Jeff Delaney is using the term Grandmaster (of Modern Arnis) at the present time. This is another point of dispute amongst Modern Arnis practioners.

Senior Master/Junior Master - Prof. Presas gave out this title to several of his students. The Junior master title was given to Dieter Knuettel and (I might be mistaken onthis one and if so it is my error) Michael Bates. The Senior Master title was given to Rodillo Dagaoc, Roland Dantes, Vincente Sanchez of the Philippines and to myself in the US.

The other terms such as "IMAF commissioners" and "black belt society" I do not know. As to the title relating to the ability to teach, find a teacher you can really relate to is my best advice. Then, go to the Modern Arnis 2003 Symposium in Buffalo, NY to see the best fo the best actually teach.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis

Hello Dan,

Nice explaination of the above terms. Since I posted the orginal comments let me add the following clarifers...

1. all of the above mentioned titles have been used at some point in time by the late Professor Presas, as acknowledgements and rewards for people within the IMAF under him. More importantly and in the context of the discussions that led to that posting of titles, was the fact that I wanted to make the point that there are many people who have studied with Professor who have had titles granted to them; therefore the MOTTs are not particularly unique within the long term scheme of things.

2. The Black Belt Society consists of Guro Lee Lowry, Guro Rick Mitchell, Guro Richard Roy and Punong Guro Tom Bolden. These people were designated by Professor Presas as the founding memebrs at a summer camp hosted by Richard Roy in 1989. Thereafter, no other people were selected for inclusion by Professor. None of the then existing datus were included then or later. None of the MOTTs were included. Therefore my point was and still is that professor used titles and issued titles based on what he thought was in his best interest at each particular time and place in his career.

3. I believe that the Senior Master title was also awarded to both Punong Guro Tom Bolden and Guro Douglas Pierre, in addition to the people named above.

Thus, I am strongly suggesting that we need to come together at the proposed 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium so that we can see and determine for our individual selves, who has the advanced and creative skills and knowledge within the art. This is a determination that each indiviual must make and it will not be dependent upon any document or pronouncement, real or alleged. The proof will be given out on the training floor and everyone in attendence will have an opportunity to train with the presenters. The rank will be determined by the actual skill level of the presenters.

My suggestion to Rodnco, is to give us an indication about where you live and let's see if there is a Modern Arnis instructor(s) near you whom you could interview and have a trial lesson or two with in order to help you decide if this is the correct art for you.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[The Mist]

With all due humility and respect, what makes you belive that the title of Senior Master was given to Doug?
I think he is a fine Martial Artist. I just never had any indication of that when I met him at Mich. Camp a few years back.
Curious only... not throwing any food!

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by The Mist



With all due humility and respect, what makes you belive that the title of Senior Master was given to Doug?
I think he is a fine Martial Artist. I just never had any indication of that when I met him at Mich. Camp a few years back.
Curious only... not throwing any food!

I saw the certificate, signed by Remy.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.