Hwa rang Do - Kook Sul Won connection?

[Bob D.]

Bruce, The stories JBL has told are only a small part of the problem with WHRDA. The reasons that there are so few schools has to do with a great system being watered down, promotions gien without ability or enough time behind them, arrogant leaders, abusive leaders, money, fees, more money, and a general lack of mutual respect from leaders.
Any talent that went through the system has left (I know of 12 senior instructors personally and the blackbelts under them as well). I remember in around 1981, there were about 8 Master instructors that moved to California from S. Korea. They all left the orginization within a couple of years because of issues with JBL and his oldest boy. The schools on east coast are under GM Yum and are far enough away that they are less effected by world HQ. After 30 years you can count the number of schools that REALLY exist on both hands. The good thing is that there are a few schools that are no longer affiliated with WHRDA that teach some of the old way.
What was originally taught by Lee, Joo-Sang the older brother of JBL was power and combat oriented (Kicks - joint locks). It was taught somewhat randomly. The system with numbered sets and hyungs was implemented after JBL came in 1972. Four of the five instructors I've directly trained under came from Lee, Joo Sang. They all say the subtleties of how JSL did kicks and joint locks was different then the way JBL does them. This has to be due to more then Carstens explaination. It might be partly due to the fact that JBL was still in Korea for 8 years longer then JSL. It might be that they trained with different teachers before '65. It would be interesting to know.
Many instructors say JSL was more able and willing to teach details of technique. JBL would show it and expect one to get it then move on. I think the emphisis changed to demo techniques and new students got cought up in memorizing the large sets of techniques for belt tests and not perfecting them or training them to work spontaneously. I started in late '79 and I left in 1986 to further my college education. When I came back in 1990 things had changed dramatically. I continue with HRD and have dabbled in Hapkido, Judo, BJJ, and now Yanagi Aki-jujitsu. I find the latter 3 have filled in the blanks so to speak. ...OK I'm rambling now. I guess I will always have HRD, whatever it is, in my blood. I am very impressed with your knowledge of Korean MA and share your interest. I have some things to add to the story when the time is right or when they can be verified. Regards, Bob

 

[Bob D.]

BTW, I studied Kuk Sool Won with Master Moon in Tarzana, CA. for a month. Granted, one month is not very much time but I was 4 years into Hwa Rang Do at the time and knew what I was looking at. I found that while the "look" of the forms, some of the joint lock sets, and the "name" of the kicks and when they were taught are similar, They are infact done differently. I found it very "studio" oriented compared to the HRD I was doing. The joint locks were "nice" and overly stylized. The kicks had no power and thier form (the kicks)was basic and lacking sophistication. It seemed to be very "pretty" but not "dynamic" like HRD was. I was not very impressed with KSW and never went back even though my HRD school was 20 min. farther. B

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

"......What was originally taught by Lee, Joo-Sang the older brother of JBL was power and combat oriented (Kicks - joint locks). It was taught somewhat randomly. ...."

I think we are definitely on the same wave-length. Of course, it follows that the next question would be who still does things the "old way"? For instance, the material of the KUK SOOL people seems to have really gone down hill since the brothers split up and went their separate ways. I am not surprised to hear that the material has become essentially "theatrical." But there are still folks who teach the older material though it is provided under an alternate name now that things have been trademarked. In like manner, then, I should think that someone is still doing things the older way, even if it is not with WHRDA trademarks and titles all over it. If JBL's material was related to Kim, Moo-Woongs' style of kicking would it be enough to find a person or persons' who trace their material back to Kim? Are there people who still practice the earlier method of what we know now as HwaRangDo albeit under a different name? I hope I am making myself clear enough. I know their are people who purport to teach HwaRangDo, though I don't know them to be WHRDA members. What I think I am asking is if somehow the original approach was preserved in some obscure location while JBL went forward with his organization? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

Bruce, There are a few different answers to your question. There is a Hwa Rang Do in Australia that is totally independent of JBL and never was affiliated as far as I know. I don't know what the details are.
<p>There are Hwa rang do in Korea that are not WHRDA. From what I've seen it is very soft style and very dynamic at the same time.
<p>There are Korean instructors here in the States that were with JBL but now teach thier own system. Unfortunatly some of the senior masters have changed things just for the sake of doing it differently then WHRDA and the results are silly. Others are pretty amazing.
<p> I'll come back later. Bob

 

[Hwarang]

>> Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?....."
I have spoken with Dr. Kimm about his material. <<

Of course there are errors, GM Kimm has done a lot of great work, but he has the same problem as anyone else:
There were very, very few original teaching people originally. If it was complete he probably wouldn't have to update it?

One example of errors in the Hwarang Do text is about GM Lee and GM Kim Mu Hong:
GM Joo Bang Lee opened his first school in 1960, GM Kim Mu-Hong opened his first school in 1961. That's a problem, how did Kim teach Lee then?
GM Kim Mu-Hong was a student of GM Suh Bok-Sup. So, because of the book, you're now saying that GM Lee really was NOT a student of GM Choi. You now think he's a student of GM Kim, who was a student of GM Suh, who was a student of GM Choi? Then we have alot of long discussions ahead of us.
I'd like you to explain your position on this.

>> ".......Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant?
His curriculum is nearly identical to the one that both he and JBL derived from their experience with GM Kim, Moo Woong. <<

You have to explain a little more before I can post. Are you saying GM Shin says GM Lee was a student of GM Kim, or are you saying you think GM Shin's curriculum = GM Lee's curriculum = GM Kim's curriculum???

>> Are we to believe that everyone from Choi, to Kim, to Ji to Myung all pirated material from a young JBL? <<

Are any of the many, many "Hapkido" styles identical to Daito Ryu? Are you saying it was a young Ji, a young Myung or a young Kim who changed it? They were all young, there were no one else there teaching at the time...

>>Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

I have been a member of two mailing lists: Glenn's TKD list and the_dojang. I was kicked off TKD because I posted on the_dojang. Denmark is a free country and I don't like censorship, so I did not sign up again. I certainly did unsubscribe the_dojang however. There were several reasons, not least that the discussions were going in circles and I've been doing this for very long. At least here I can refer to the old posts instead of having to repost everything. It takes me a long time to write this in English and I don't appreciate you're imply I'm evading discussing with you.

>> So unless you can support your statements with facts I guess I need to know what your investment is in perpetuating these romantic myths. Whats in it for you? <<

There you go again - show me where I'm perpetuating romantic myths!
I post on history, and if you can show me examples of doing anything else, I'd appreciate you either show some posts or stop slamming me.
What's in it for me? I would like to say here on a public list that I am not a spokesman for World Hwarang Do Association. They do not know I post here, or anywhere else. I do not make any money from teaching Hwarang Do, but I am one of the people who knows the most about Hwarang Do history and it irritates me that you and other people in America are posting the most unbelievable nonsense on Hwarang Do without anyone showing you're wrong.

>> Yes, this should be entertaining! <<

Hi Bob D, hope it was entertaining for you.
Did you explain how Hwarang Do *really* is a business cult yet?
I'll start a new thread for you.

I’ll have a follow-up to the last couple of posts in this thread in a moment.

 

[dohap]

Hwarang:
the only way to clear the internet from "nonsenses" is to publish real history.
Don't be surprised.
Let's look at the lineage of JBLee.
If the lineage was preserved (and was, if JBLee knows He's 58th) also names should be known. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So why You don't write it?

 

[Hwarang]

lol - I can't finish writing it because I'm busy answering all your comments.

Almost there.

 

[dohap]

so just answer this about hyungs and lineage. In others I'm not so interested.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

OK. Lets try this again.

Three simple questions.

a.) Joo Bang Lee represented himself as the 59th grandmaster of his lineage. Please given the names of #58, #57, #56, and #55 and perhaps a brief bio on each.

b.) When Did Joo Bang Lee start teaching his art, how old was he and who were his first 10 students?

c.) Joo Bang Lee is the product of a system based on the O-Gae. Why is he unwilling or unable to maintain a sustained relationship with various members of his organization?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Michael Billings]

... many of us are reading these threads with interest. I do not understand the dichotomy between what you are asking, with how you are asking it.

There is a very challenging tone to the posts, and you stated that you all have reached this impasse previously on other Boards. Please try to include some of the subtext or history, so that the average reader, like myself, gets a better understanding of what is pretty obviously occurring between you.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Michael Billings]

I have read the thread here re: Hwa rang-Do

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=191041#post191041

So I have a little perspective.

-Michael

 

[dohap]

It's taking so long only because "Hwarang" doesn't want to answer 2 simple questions: what is JBLee's lineage (with names) and who created hrd forms (sulsa is another story).

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

Your post begs a very long and complex answer, so at the risk of over-simplifying things let me provide a few background points as I see them.

1.) We don't really know what it was that Choi studied in Japan, but he did bring back to Korea some art that he chose to teach, first out of an independent school, then, failing that, out of the back of a brewery, and finally out of his house.

2.) The Big Five, as I call them---- Ji, Han Jae; Seo, In Hyuk; Lee, Joo Bang, Kim, Moo-woong and Suh, Bok Sub were all part and parcel of the early Choi years and each went on to represent a tradition when it became plain that they could not work together to produce a unified art to represent Korean martial tradition after the fashion that TKD was doing at the time.

3.) While Japanese traditions usually get the lions share of recognition in the development of these modern Hapkido arts, the role of the indigenous arts of Korea as well as the influence of Chinese traditions usually get short shrift. This lack of focus on these influencial arts from China and the arts practiced in Korea itself often provides a loophole through which people such as Lee, Joo Bang and Suh, In Hyuk can represent their arts as somehow more authentic Korean arts and use obscure references to validate their arts. The problem is that uniformly the support for these claims always comes back to "cuz teacher says" rather than supported by documentation, citations and references.

4.) In the last 10 years various people have begun to press for more standardized and valid resources to support the claims of Hapkido leadership about their arts. Many times the result is that when painted into a corner, the advocates for these arts close-up only to resurface later at another location to start the whole process over again.

In closing, let me say that the Hapkido arts of Korea are among the finest in the World with many varied forms and takes on their content or curriculum. We don't need outlandship claims to lineage and heritage to validate these arts. They come through hardwork and dedication and invoking some romantic history won't change that or make them any better. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hwarang]

Bruce:
>> Are there people who still practice the earlier method of what we know now as HwaRangDo albeit under a different name?<<

Would it be an idea talking with GM Lee himself rather than talking with other people about him?
You know, he does live in America. He's really very friendly, if he has the time, I've never seen him turn away people.

BobD:
>> There is a Hwa Rang Do in Australia that is totally independent of JBL and never was affiliated as far as I know. I don't know what the details are. <<

GM Lee called him in Australia long time ago. There is no connection, the Australian master used the name because when heard about GM Lee and the Hwarang Do people when he trained Taekwondo in Korea.

>> There are Hwa rang do in Korea that are not WHRDA. <<

There are many old Hwarang Do people in Korea from when GM Lee was there. Some of them teach under the name "Hapkido" because it's much better known today. But there are certainly WHRDA in Korea.

>> Four of the five instructors I've directly trained under came from Lee, Joo Sang. They all say the subtleties of how JSL did kicks and joint locks was different then the way JBL does them. This has to be due to more then Carstens explaination. <<

Of course it has to be something strange, the fact that Hwarang Do black belts moves and kicks differently doesn’t apply to grandmasters <ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz>

Bruce:
>> Three simple questions. <<

Thanks!

>> a.) Joo Bang Lee represented himself as the 59th grandmaster of his lineage. Please given the names of #58, #57, #56, and #55 and perhaps a brief bio on each. <<

58th generation was the monk Suam Dosa. I have never asked about 57-55. I can if you're interested, or you could go talk with him in LA?

>> b.) When Did Joo Bang Lee start teaching his art, how old was he and who were his first 10 students? <<

The first school opened April 17th 1960 and the first black belt test was on May 5th 1961. GM An Sang-duk, the Korean chiefgrandmaster was one of the people who tested at the first blackbelt test.

http://www.hwarangdo.com/certif.htm is a searchable list of Hwarang Do black belts. You can also list all black belts here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/blacksash.cgi , this includes pictures and will take a long time if you have a slow Internet connection.

If you go to the page listed you'll notice that only the active masters are listed. But since I typed all Korean black belts into the computer in 1989 (some obscure program I'm sure no current computer can read I know for a fact that the list is complete.
This was before I could read Korean, so GM Lee wrote down the names on sheets of paper, and I typed them in. I'll see if I still have the original papers so I can answer your question completely Bruce.

In case you are still not convinced GM Lee opened his school in 1960: here is the cover from the tournament program from the "5th National Hwa Rang Do Tournament and Exhibition November 1972".
The top line reads in Korean "Che 12chu-nyon ki-nyoum - 12 years founding anniversary" (1972 minus 12 years = 1960), http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/5th-exhibition.html . Would you like to discuss the validity of the tournament program?

I don't have GM Lee's birthday here, but I'm guessing early 20ies.

>> c.) Joo Bang Lee is the product of a system based on the O-Gae. Why is he unwilling or unable to maintain a sustained relationship with various members of his organization? <<

I started this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12382 called "Talking bad about Hwarang Do". As I say in the thread there are as many reasons for people to stop training Hwarang Do as in any other style.
Are you saying that all GM Lee's student hate him?

Could you please follow up on this in the other thread so we can keep this for discussions about Hwarang Do and Kuk Sool Won?

Here you go Dohap, thanks for your patience
The monk Suam Dosa and Hwarang Do :
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=12393

 

[Bob D.]

Carsten, You still don't understand! We want info that does not originate with JBL.

Also, are you saying that JBL at 18 years of age was given highest masters rank over all other GM Choi students?

 

[Hwarang]

You want?

What part of my post do you find would improve with information from other sources?

1960 was before they were giving ranks. People just trained there without the students knowing about the other students. It was not until 1968 that GM Ji and GM Lee recieved the 8.dan from GM Choi.

But age is really not a good argument for anything Bob D, they were all young.

 

[Bob D.]

You want?

No, don't mis-quote. "We want"

What part of my post do you find would improve with information from other sources?

First off, the parts where you say ask GM Lee yourselves.
Then, most of what you have written on other threads.

1960 was before they were giving ranks. People just trained there without the students knowing about the other students. It was not until 1968 that GM Ji and GM Lee recieved the 8.dan from GM Choi.

You just got through saying on another thread that he was given masters rank in 1956.
You make it sound like they were training in secret. Do you really believe one could train to master level for 6 years or so and not know about thier teachers other students?? That's silly.

But age is really not a good argument for anything Bob D, they were all young

You believe that an 18 year old mastered an art beyond all others in about 6 years while going to regular school and training with the monk? Amazing!

Where does In yuk Suh fit in to all of this? Do you think he studied with Choi?

Why do you suppose HRD & KSW share the same syllibus?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

Thank you for your post, however, what I am (and I think everyone else is) seeking is independent validation or verification of statements made regarding the nature and content and history of what is presented by JBL as "HwaRangDo"/Um-Yang Kwon. No independent verification, no facts. Its as simple as that. Nobody faults that JBL can represent anything as anything he might care to. However, to represent his statements as facts, unlike in countries such as China and Korea one cannot mix myth and fact. Please provide independent sources and verification of the information I requested.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Michael Billings]

History is often written by the winners ... or survivors. Sometimes it is mallable even within your own lifetime. This is not a good thing, but it is accurate and not just within your Arts, respectively.

You are looking for black and white facts, trust me, recollections change, even when you are not talking about a 40 year difference. I hear contradictory stories all the time, by people who were at the same scene, at the same time, observing the same thing. Many things color our recollections of events pasts. Even written documentation could be conveniently "created."

Just visit one of the other forums, Ninjitsu, Kenpo, Modern Arnis, and you will see this same disagreement, different players, different words ... but the same theme.

Be proud of your lineage, respect your seniors, and be tolerant of those who just don't know what they don't know, (another way of saying they don't know any better.) I do not see this thread coming to a fruitful conclusion, do you? Can there be an agreement to disagree? Yes, I know this is difficult, but as we respect our own sources of information and history, we will zealously protect them. I have seen this same stance in many a good person, who just did not know they had been hoodwinked, or misled unintentionally by the "sources" of their information.

The polarity you have from each other will continue as long as you allow it. I don't see either of you as the type to "back down."

Good luck and keep training ... it is a lot better than typing.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[Bob D.]

I think it's just a search for accurate info.