Hwa rang Do - Kook Sul Won connection?

[Bob D.]

I know that Hwa Rang Do and Kook Sul Won are very similar and that the founders are from the Choi, Young-Sool lineage. My question is where Lee, Joo Bang was a student of Kim Moo-Hong, who was Suh, In hyuk's teacher?
What other art besides Hapkido did he study?

 

[jkn75]

The Kuk Sool Website just got revamped. The history is here. Some stuff has been added from the history that is in the textbook, especially the Thumb technique.

Grandmaster Suh doesn't talk about all of his teachers for whatever reasons. A couple are mentioned but finding out about all the masters that he trained with really would be interesting. Hopefully, all the history comes out. It seems a lot of the newer Korean arts were developed from people who trained together and it's hard to know the whole story. Hopefully, Dr. He Young Kimm's book sheds some light on modern Korean MA history.

Some of the videos I've seen show some differences in the arts though. The advanced forms are very different. Kuk Sool's advanced forms are more animal style based intead of advanced kicks based. The techniques are similar though but that can be said about a lot of the arts based on the aikijujitsu lineage. However, I haven't seen a lot of the Hwa Rang Do forms or techniques so I'm basing that on the above videos and some other videos I've seen.

 

[Bob D.]

It's funny...nobody seems to know these old monks that Lee joo bang and Suh In Hyuk trained under. There are no records or independant knowledge of Suam Dosa and I imagine the same is true of the others as well. Is it hypocricy that in Arts that demand strict loyalty and adherance to "tradition", the "founders" seem to have disassociated themselves from their teachers and assembled new arts?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization had been able to at least identify the monastery at which Suahm Dosa resided but there is very little about the actual content of what he taught beyond what GM Lee has shared. I found sound, thought-provoking material on Bob Duggans' website regarding the early years of HwaRang in the US and have no reason to think that it is any more or less accurate than anything else anyone is espousing.

BTW: You may find this interesting as a side light. Another student of Moo Woong Kim teaches up in the San Francisco-Redwood area somewhere. Interestingly enough he identifies the material as "HwaRang Kwan Hapkido". Coincidence? Who knows? I just stop by here for the brainfood.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[pknox]

The lineage from the Hwa Rang Do perspective can be found here...

http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm


To summarize, according to the chart, the "Kuk Sool Hwe" was an organization that was founded by the Lees in Seoul, and existed from 1962-1966. Listed as a suborganization is "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido" which is listed as a member of the Kuk Sool Hwe from 1962-1964, and has In Hyuk Suh listed from 1965-1974, located in Pusan. The chart then breaks off "Kuksoolwon" as a separate organization arising out of "Kuk Sool Won Hapkido", attributing it to In Hyuk Suh and giving the date as 1974, and the location as "USA." If you work your way up the chart you'll see common source arts, but the aforementioned info also shows that there was a common organizational structure between the two founders at one time as well.

 

[Bob D.]

I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization had been able to at least identify the monastery at which Suahm Dosa resided

Yes, but Lee Joo Bang burned it down after Suam Dosa died. I have yet to hear of anyone else that can confirm the story. Maybe there was this monk but what did he actually teach? Granted, HRD is different enough from KSW and Hapkido that I beleive JBL studied some form of Chin Na or Pa qua (spelling?). Alot of the early joint lock sets are almost identical to KSW as well as some of the forms. The style is different, but the order and type is the same.
But, if HRD was a seperate art, what was it? Ancient fighting arts incompassed mostly weapons. Why does JBL appear to not know how to hold a Korean Bow? (Magazine cover from the 80's)
There are some great Knife, sword, staff, rope, and stick forms-techniques in HRD. Where did they come from?
The HRD kicking is unique and vast. 15+ years ago I did not find any other arts teaching the same form of kicks that are HRD. Now more and more arts seem to have picked up alot of it.
In fact I was told JBL's kicking is different from his brother Lee Joo Sang. JBL's style is more like TKD and alot of Hapkidoists and JSL is more power oriented with a fairly unique style. There are so many questions I am interested in finding the truth about.
This is all from a purely scholarly interest. Bob

 

[Bob D.]

PKNOX,
That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really. Bob

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

"......Yes, but Lee Joo Bang burned it down after Suam Dosa died. I have yet to hear of anyone else that can confirm the story...."

Sorry about the confusion. What I understand is that Lee burned down the hut or house that the monk had elected to live in by himself. He still had an affiliation with a monastery and perhaps knowing more about the traditions of that monastery might provide greater insight. Then again, maybe not. A friend of mine had the honor of participating in a tour of Korea in the company of Dr. He-young Kimm which included visiting a Son monastery. They were given a demonstration of the martial traditions practiced at this monastery. My understanding is that the material demonstrated was closer to Chinese Chi Kung than a dynamic MA. However, Jere did mention that there were monks at the monastery who, while not involving themselves in the demo executed highly sophisticated MA technique during the subsequent study period.

Personally, my issue with Lee was his original assertion that he had somehow inherited the 59th GM-ship of the HwaRang lineage, later modifying this to identify himself as having learned "Um-Yang Bup" (essentially "hard-soft method). To my mind this would be tantamont to someone asserting they had inherited some exotic art such as TSKSR and then later "clarifying" by saying "well, I studied Japanese sword". Big Difference.

As far as getting someone to catalog all of their learning experiences I wouldn't hold my breath. There may be a few variables at work here.

1.) You might find out that the "survey" of "many" teachers was little more than meeting and greeting a number of the regional personalities and checking to see what they were doing. Also in the Korean mind, spending time talking with a teachers' students over a couple of beers can easily be represented as talking with the teachers themselves.

2.) In Korean culture (much like in the States) Image is everything. Its not so much what you have done but what you have represented to others and been accepted as that counts. In this way I could train under an obscure member of a particular lineage and feel absolutely comfortable saying that I trained under the head of the tradition itself.

3.) Don't discount the Human side of the story. Put the personalities and their respective auras to oneside. Consider that at one time you had a group of young turks wanting to build a MA organization to rival the income and prestige of the growing TKD/TSD folks at the time. How many times have we seen this same story played out here in the States. A bunch of young turks want to start the "next big thing" and then have a falling out when they can't agree on who will sit at the top of the stack.

4.) Don't discount the Chinese influence. Its easy to draw on resources which are rich in information but for a number of reasons won't step forward and make themselves known. Lee, Seo and maybe many others had experience with other traditions and at least Seo owns that one of his teachers was of a Chinese tradition. There are at least four major styles of Chinese Boxing in Korea and probably a lot more smaller teachers. but you don't hear a lot about them. Doesn't mean they didn't/don't exist. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

Bruce, It would be nice if JBL and IHS just admitted they learned from Kim moo-hong if that's the case. I think JBL did state that in a 90's Blackbelt magazine interview, but you can't find any mention of it on his web site.
There is no doubt in my mind that JBL knows some unique stuff and was one of the most gifted martial artists of his time. I have spoken to many senior martial artist over the years who say his abilities are vast and he was very powerful. Many say he performed with lots of "aki" in his technique though he never taught it. He certianly developed a dynamic MA with vast sets of seemingly endless variations of joint locks.
It's unfortunate though that ego, money and his eldist son have spoiled a good thing. Bob

 

[pknox]

Originally posted by Bob D.
PKNOX,
That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really. Bob

That may be, but I figured as the KSW info was already posted, it would be fair to put up the info according to HWD as well, and let people make up their own minds.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....It's unfortunate though that ego, money and his eldist son have spoiled a good thing. Bob...."

No argument there. I have often wished that it might be possible to get in contact with more people who trained under Kim. His lineage must be one of the best kep secrets in the MA world.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jkn75]

It would be fantastic if all the Korean masters had histories as complete as Dr. He Young Kimm. I would like to know when everyone's path crossed in Korea. But as time goes by In Hyuk Suh is revealing more and more details about himself and may at some time release a complete autobiography, however I haven't heard any rumors that this will happen.

Although there is no confirmation, there have been two events that may reveal which monks IHS trained under. On the Korea trip in 2002, the Kuk Sool group stayed at the Bak Dahm Sa Temple. They were allowed to stay the night and the group was taught some meditation techniques. The second event was during the 2003 World Tournament. The Great Monk Cho, Oh Hyun visited the KSW Ranch, spoke at the Master's Demo and again at the Ranch the next day. I assume there would be some connection for the Great Monk to come to the US and allow outsiders into the temple for a night.

It's thin but at least it's something .

 

[Hwarang]

Bob D. :
>> I know that Hwa Rang Do and Kook Sul Won are very similar and that the founders are from the Choi, Young-Sool lineage. My question is where Lee, Joo Bang was a student of Kim Moo-Hong <<

Joo Bang Lee was not a student of GM Kim, what is your source of this?

About the HRD - KSW similarity, this goes back to the Korean Martial Arts Association (Kuk Sool Hwe), but it does not take much training in any style to see that the "similar" techniques are really very different in the two styles.

I've trained with KWS students and masters, but compare HRD and KSW yourself and make up your own mind. If you don't live near both Dojangs there are now videos of both styles available and more and more stuff gets online. I think it's easy to see who did what, but you should really make up your own mind if you're interested.

jkn75:
>>Some of the videos I've seen show some differences in the arts though.<<

Sure, there are major, major differences. It is, and were different styles.
What is best KSW or HRD? Whichever style you like, but they are certainly different.

Bob D:
>> Is it hypocricy that in Arts that demand strict loyalty and adherance to
"tradition", the "founders" seem to have disassociated themselves from their teachers and assembled new arts? <<

I don't understand what you're saying? GM Lee has ALWAYS said he had two teachers, the monk Suam Dosa and Choi Yong Sul who taught him Yawara. And of course neither of them taught "styles", they taught different techniques for different people - no system.

glad2bhere:
>> I remember that Carsten, a strong advocate for the HwaRang organization <<

I post on history, not on politics. Could you show me a post where I advokate WHRDA? Anyone are free to tell me if what I post on Hwarang Do history is wrong, but don't simply say that I advocate the Hwarang orgainsation. I'm not a spokesperson for WHRDA, but I do know a lot about the history.

Bob D:
>> Granted, HRD is different enough from KSW and Hapkido that I beleive JBL studied some form of Chin Na or Pa qua (spelling?) <<

Hey good, we agree on something, HRD is certainly different from KSW and HKD.
But what is your reason to believe he studied Chin Na or Paqua?

>> Alot of the early joint lock sets are almost identical to KSW as well as some of the forms. The style is different, but the order and type is the same. <<

The Kuk Sool Hwe - text and photos on Hwarangdo.com. It's actually not 'a lot of sets' but 'some sets', for instance "defense against wrist grab", (20 techniques on the same side and 8 cross grab) and "basic attacking joint locks" (15 techniques, first is attack to the wrist and the last a throw). And again. the way each style does the techniques in the sets are certainly not identical.

>> In fact I was told JBL's kicking is different from his brother Lee Joo Sang. <<

Of course it's a basic concept in Hwarang Do that there is no "standard" way we do techniques. For instance some people are predominant liniar and some more circular, some use more power, some more speed. We think this is a good thing, so there is absolutely nothing strange about two HRD grandmasters kicking "differently". Already around black belt level you'll see big differences in how different black belts move.

>> JBL's style is more like TKD <<
Naturally we all agree that originally Karate only did a few low snapping kicks, which is nothing like JBL kicks?

>> That info is originally from the WHRD web site. All of which is very suspect. I can't even read a word on that site anymore...it has "CULT" written all over it. A shame really. <<

This is a discussion I'm looking forward to! I'll be back full time on January 14th, but until then feel free to explain how Hwarang is *really* a business cult. Do remember to include how much money people in Hwarang Do are required to pay to WHRDA!!

Carsten
(back in a month)

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

I have to admit that you have done a pretty good job of telling everyone what HwaRang tradition is NOT. You have also done a pretty good job of telling us what you are NOT doing. Thats fair. But I think its time for you to come up front and tell us what it is that you ARE advocating.

I have been to the sites you have mentioned and read the material that you have recommended but I don't see anything in the way of facts that connects what is being taught today with whatever traditions you think you know about back in the Three Kingdoms Period. All I can discern is that one particular personality is invoking the spirit of the HwaRang warriors and wants people to take his truthes on faith for no reason other than its what he identifies as truth. Now, nobody is denying the existence of the HwaRang warriors in Korean history and I don't think anyone is denying the existence of Joo Bang Lee. What I would like to see is documented evidence that the two are connected. If you have some other agenda then I suppose this would be a good time to share that. In the meantime, if you are half as thorough in your research as you would like the readership to believe, now would be a good time to start sharing your resources and citations. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

Joo Bang Lee was not a student of GM Kim, what is your source of this?

It's common knowledge he was. Infact he says so in a 90's Blackbelt article. If your "research" had gone beyond the WHRD web site, you would know that.:shrug:

About the HRD - KSW similarity, this goes back to the Korean Martial Arts Association (Kuk Sool Hwe), but it does not take much training in any style to see that the "similar" techniques are really very different in the two styles.

Not just similar, THE SAME. I've seen vidio footage of Suh doing HRD yellow belt form exactly as I learned it. I've been told son muk sool is the exact same 28 techniques in the same order. There are others. It makes sense since JBL and IHS were friends and training together at one time

I don't understand what you're saying? GM Lee has ALWAYS said he had two teachers, the monk Suam Dosa and Choi Yong Sul who taught him Yawara. And of course neither of them taught "styles", they taught different techniques for different people - no system

If you can't understand what I'm saying then I can't help you.

This is a discussion I'm looking forward to! I'll be back full time on January 14th, but until then feel free to explain how Hwarang is *really* a business cult. Do remember to include how much money people in Hwarang Do are required to pay to WHRDA!!

I don't need to explain it. Look up the word "Cultist" in a English dictionary, take a good look in the mirror. As to your last sentence, did you read your Black belt contract? Have you seen the latest? If not there is a copy of a 90's version posted on Bob Duggans web site for you to read.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Carsten:

The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. Furthermore another student of Kims', GM Dong Ki Song, likewise teaches in California and likewise identifies his style as HwaRangKwan. I can reasonably imagine that JBL and a lot of other people saw the growing success of TKD and TSD back in the 50-s and 60-s and wanted to mimic that success with a tradition of their own. It didn't work because the young turks couldn't agree on who would be the identified authority at the head of the organization. I don't know Bob Duggan, his organization or his politics, however, his material on his website seems to make a lot more sense and is better supported with evidence than to continue to say that JBL was taught by an obscure monk and is now the 59th inheritor of a martial art tradition that goes back 58 generations--- none of which is supported with documentation.

Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. I think it is fair to say that the days of martial art people being "wowed" by oral traditions passed around by self-agrandizing personalities have died with the coming of the Internet. In this spirit perhaps it would be a service to either show your evidence or quit trying to market a position that is no longer tenable.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hwarang]

Good grief - I don't have time for this, but one last post this time.

>> It's common knowledge he was. Infact he says so in a 90's Blackbelt article. If your "research" had gone beyond the WHRD web site, you would know that. <<

If that is true then you shouldn't have any problems posting the quote here, right? My research is a little more than reading the website. Actually I wrote the first draft for the history on the site (long time ago, the text is much, much more detailed today). What is your own research? Reading magazines?

>> Not just similar, THE SAME. I've seen vidio footage of Suh doing <<

No, not the same. Go visit any KSW dojang and see for yourself. The order of techniques are the same, but the way they are executed are very different.

>> I've been told son muk sool is the exact same 28 techniques in the same order. <<

If you bothered reading what I wrote above I *did* write "defense against wrist grab", (20 techniques on the same side and 8 cross grab)" - Hoshin Wan Sul in Hwarang Do and Sohn Mohk Soo in Kuk Sool Won. It goes back to the Kuk Sool Hwe - The Korean Martial Arts Association.

>> If you can't understand what I'm saying then I can't help you. <<

Of course you can help me, just explain what you mean.

>> I don't need to explain it. <<

Sure you do, you can't just go around saying Hwarang Do is a cult if you can't explain why!

>> Look up the word "Cultist" in a English dictionary, <<

Sorry I don't have an English dictionary, only an English spell checker which I don't use nearly enough. You'll have to look it up for me.

>> take a good look in the mirror.

Show me some examples of my cultist behavior! Is it cultish behavior to post on MartialTalk?

>> did you read your Black belt contract? Have you seen the latest? <<

Of course I read it, one of my students tested for black belt this year, so I've also seen the latest contract, why?

>> If not there is a copy of a 90's version posted on Bob Duggans web site for you to read. <<

Yes, Bob D's site is funny. Come on describe the contract to us.


glad2bhere:
>> The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. <<

Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?

>> Furthermore another student of Kims', GM Dong Ki Song, likewise teaches in California and likewise identifies his style as HwaRangKwan. <<

Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant? On http://www.hwarangkwan.com/about.html is says GM Shin opened his school in 1965 which means he's certainly a senior master, but not one of the original masters.

>> better supported with evidence <<

What evidence do you see?

>> Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

:lol:

Sorry, I will neither quit my job nor stop travelling just to make you happy.
I have said at least four times that I'm busy untill next year. Too bad.

I spent some time on the HRD><HKD post yesterday, and when I'm back I'll write the text on Suam Dosa together with "what I'm advocating", and we can take it from there. If you like.

Carsten
(still back on January 14th)

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Carsten, but what you are doing simply won't pass for solid research. And the fact that your responses are general subjective repartee pretty much confirms that you have nothing to actually back-up what you are saying.

Now, on the contrary allow me to present the following.

"......glad2bhere:
>> The source on JBL as Kim, Moo Woongs' student is related by Dr. Kimm, He-Young in his book HAPKIDO in the history chapter. <<

Yes, there are quite a few errors in the chapter on Hwarang Do. I don't think GM Kimm feels the book is 100% accurate?....."

I have spoken with Dr. Kimm about his material. We need to remember that he was connected with many of the players including In Sun Seo at the very time many of the things that were going on happened. Whatismore, he has interviewed numbers of other players and has derived consistent reports from many sources. I find his research impeccable and only people with a vested and dare I say unsubstantiated
version of history have seen fit to deride his efforts. Dr Kimm can support his versions with both personal experience, documents and collaborating testimony of others. What do YOU have?

".......Dong Kie Shin? Why is Hwarang Kwan relevant? On http://www.hwarangkwan.com/about.html is says GM Shin opened his school in 1965 which means he's certainly a senior master, but not one of the original masters......."

His curriculum is nearly identical to the one that both he and JBL derived from their experience with GM Kim, Moo Woong. If there is no collusion among these many disparate teachers why does the curriculum continually come back to the many same techniques taught in the many same order as other Hapkido traditions. Are we to believe that everyone from Choi, to Kim, to Ji to Myung all pirated material from a young JBL?


"..... Now in fairness to the readership here I should remind you that on two previous occasions we have come to this point in similar discussions (most recently last year on the DOCHANG DIGEST) and on both of those previous occasions you have quite suddenly dropped out of the discussion. <<

Sorry, I will neither quit my job nor stop travelling just to make you happy.
I have said at least four times that I'm busy untill next year. Too bad......"

Yes, such excuses are understandable. Its not the excuse but the timing I am pointing out. As long as people take your inferences at face value and don't question too deeply things are fine and you have more than enough time. You also have the advantage of people wanting a more romantic view of the KMA to be true. I am sure that Stanley Henning ran into the same thing when he finally documented that Chinese Boxing did not start with the Shaolin Temple but had been going on long before. People wanted the Hollywood version of robbed monks kicking butt to be true and didn't want to be confused with the facts. But now people such as myself are not willing to stand in awe of fabricated and misrepresented facts. So unless you can support your statements with facts I guess I need to know what your investment is in perpetuating these romantic myths. Whats in it for you?

".........I spent some time on the HRD><HKD post yesterday, and when I'm back I'll write the text on Suam Dosa together with "what I'm advocating", and we can take it from there. If you like........................"

Thats fine. I'll be here.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Bob D.]

Yes, this should be entertaining!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bob:

I can't speak for the entertainment value, but somewhere along the line this crap has got to stop. For some 40 years people in positions of responsibility have been spouting various stories to validate their organizational efforts. Sometimes I can't believe the man-hours and efforts that have been made to try and bring some reality to this stuff. I have noticed recently that many of the former statement spoken like Hold Writ now come with a number of qualifiers and disclaimers such as the interview in BLACK BELT magazine some time back by GM Lee. Its not bad enough that many of the typical practitioners WANT to believe, but the authorities KNOW they are bending the truth and continue to do it until they are painted into a corner. Even then they won't own that they were propagating an image to bolster membership enrollment.

The simple truth is that the Hapkido arts are 25% physical, 25% intellectual, 25% emotional and 25% spiritual. The people are passing these arts on to us jumped into the pool at a particular historical point and wanted to make something out of it that exceeds what it really is in truth. The arts themselves are difficult, sweaty, and painful work, and even if a person busts his butt his whole life he may only become reasonably good at them and not a BMOC. I have come to thoroughly resent these martial fantasies that people soak Korean martial science in to make it more salable to gullible publics around the world which is the whole reason I bang away at these things. If JBL wants to invoke the HwaRang so as to build membership, let him show some guts and come out clearly and say that what he is doing. If he put half as much effort into telling the whole truth as he does in defending the half-truths the man would probably not have to spend so much time working on building his organization. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce