Hung Gar vs. Villari

[marlon]

I am on my phone so I cannot post the link directly but if you go to you tube and search kenpo leopard form I believe you will find the same bookset form there done by others
Marlon

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

well, being a former instructor for Tracy's as well as for Villari's,(hey, we all did some things we're not proud of...) and having over thirty years in Martial Arts, twenty years in Hung-Gar, both Tang-Fong as well as Lam Sai-Wing versions and Village Hung Kuen, I can state with some authority that Tracy's and Parkers definately contain certain "Hung-Gar-isms" and Villari does not. Villari's doesn't have any authentic Kung-Fu in their techniques. All the so-called animal techniques are his own personal interpetation, and are not related to anything Chinese.
I have also met a man who studied a Hung Kuen system descended from WFH through Malaysia, which was in fact, very Kenpo-like in its application. Lightning fast barrages of techniques, all flowing from one to the other, very close in and aggressive.
Is Kenpo descended from Hung-Gar? We may never know, but there are many similarities to Southern Siu-Lum within the system.

Professor Cerio was Very proficient in Sil Lum.
This was also engrained into Villari(when Villari was a student under him) and to Mattera(USSD)
And his other under Nick Cerio KEmpo.
http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/professor_cerio_pages/professor_cerio_biography.html

get to paragraph about chinese food. : o P

According to who i have talked to, Cerio was heavily influenced by Sil Lum, and later, Fu Jow Pai.

 

[TenTigers]

well, it does not show up in any of his forms, or movement, so if he actually learned any Gung-Fu, he kept it a very closely guarded secret.
Are there any vids say, on youtube, that show any of this Gung-Fu? Even a simple form?
Making tiger claws, crane beaks, and snake heads, and waving your hands in circles doesn't suddenly make it Gung-Fu. That worked in the 70's during the Kung-Fu Kraze. All the Karate/Kenpo schools suddenly showed up at tournaments in Chinese outfits, knife hand blocks became claws,and suddenly everyone had a dahn-dao. But the forms, the movement, the body, the technique was not even close. The public bought into it, because they don't know the difference, but those of us in the Chinese Martial Arts community did not.
He also mentioned he trained with Chin for three years and was awarded Hachidan and Sifuship. After three years? Be serious. Even the most talented of high-ranking Black Belts cannot absorb a system's intricacies in three years to the point of being a Sifu. Sure, you can learn a handful of forms, but forms collecting is different than a comprehensive understanding of the structures, concepts, technique, etc.. I suppose you may be granted permission to teach, just as all these organizations open up schools and have distance learning, licenscing agreements, franchises, etc.
Besides, how can a Sifu in Siu-Lum bestow Hachidan, if it is a different system?
So, you're saying that if you do Kenpo, and I teach you Siu-Lum, I can give you a higher rank? In what? Then what does that rank actually mean? That's just collecting certificates. "You lie, and I'll swear to it." Sure, it happens all the time. There are the "Good Ol' Boys Clubs," organizations of fellow Martial Artists that support each other and promote each other. But when you get past the ornate certificates, awards, Hall of Fame Banquets, picture taking, and backslapping, what is the actual intrinsic value?

 

[TenTigers]

"SKK does however utilize the 5 animal concept and has created defense combos based on the strategies and attributes of these animals. Again, I don't think that they are a direct import from Hung Gar though. "
__________________

Someone explain these Five Animal concepts and techniques as taught in SKK. When I was in Villaris, their interpetation was very different from anything I have ever seen in any Siu-Lum system.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

well, it does not show up in any of his forms, or movement, so if he actually learned any Gung-Fu, he kept it a very closely guarded secret.
Are there any vids say, on youtube, that show any of this Gung-Fu? Even a simple form?
Making tiger claws, crane beaks, and snake heads, and waving your hands in circles doesn't suddenly make it Gung-Fu. That worked in the 70's during the Kung-Fu Kraze. All the Karate/Kenpo schools suddenly showed up at tournaments in Chinese outfits, knife hand blocks became claws,and suddenly everyone had a dahn-dao. But the forms, the movement, the body, the technique was not even close. The public bought into it, because they don't know the difference, but those of us in the Chinese Martial Arts community did not.
He also mentioned he trained with Chin for three years and was awarded Hachidan and Sifuship. After three years? Be serious. Even the most talented of high-ranking Black Belts cannot absorb a system's intricacies in three years to the point of being a Sifu. Sure, you can learn a handful of forms, but forms collecting is different than a comprehensive understanding of the structures, concepts, technique, etc.. I suppose you may be granted permission to teach, just as all these organizations open up schools and have distance learning, licenscing agreements, franchises, etc.
Besides, how can a Sifu in Siu-Lum bestow Hachidan, if it is a different system?
So, you're saying that if you do Kenpo, and I teach you Siu-Lum, I can give you a higher rank? In what? Then what does that rank actually mean? That's just collecting certificates. "You lie, and I'll swear to it." Sure, it happens all the time. There are the "Good Ol' Boys Clubs," organizations of fellow Martial Artists that support each other and promote each other. But when you get past the ornate certificates, awards, Hall of Fame Banquets, picture taking, and backslapping, what is the actual intrinsic value?

cerio used sil lum, for "Bits and pieces of sil lum, and the animal styles, to increase and create more techniques."

Alot of people look at NCK Kempo and say, "i do not see the animals, "
you are right, they are all as one.

 

[LawDog]

The early SKK did not have any Hung Gar in it. The early SKK did have some Hawiian Kempo in, it also had T.K.D. added, crude Judo and Jujitsu. The original SKK / USSD system was labled Kenpo Karate and the very early Cerio and USSD patches reflected this. Later in the 70's the "Shaolin" was added to the USSD patch along with the Kempo spelling.
Bruce Lee and the Kung Fu series changed everything so much that the "Shaolin" name was used as a marketing tool by many schools and organizations.
During the 70's some of the USSD black belts began cross training in in various Kung Fu systems under Masters like Yao Lee, Yon Lee, Bow Sim Mark, W.P. Woo and so on.
Back then this Kung fu craze was so big that many students had the "Shaolin" tattoo's place on the underside of their forearms, I know of a few that did do it.
The animals, in some of the early presets they did exist, later on many of the presets were altered slighly so they would represet the various animals.
The early SKK is like a jig saw puzzle, listen to those who were there during the early time period and who also do not have any vested interest in the subject.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

from reading various books on professor chow, here is what i have read:

Son of a Buddhist Monk, Soon Chow, who was a shaolin chuan fa master.
Chow also studied Hung gar, and kosh ryu kempo, and made/blended the circle and the line.He was a master of The 7 death arts including scorpion and snake techniques.
Upon his death, 5 of the "Death Arts" were lost.

 

[LawDog]

Remember that GM Pesare left California with the rank of purple belt, he did not stay long enough to learn alot. On his own web site he lists the styles that he studied and the rank / level that he had attained. His own system was / is based on alot of the techniques that he learned while training in these other systems.
Early on GM Cerio trained with S.G.M. Chow for only a few weeks. Before G.M.Cerio had started training with other Kenpo / Kempo Masters and began cross training, Villari had all ready left him.
So Kempo / Kenpo today is what it is, Eclectic.
:hmm:

 

[Xinglu]

from reading various books on professor chow, here is what i have read:

Son of a Buddhist Monk, Soon Chow...

That would be Hoon, not Soon.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

That would be Hoon, not Soon.

aplogies on the spelling, mr X!

 

[Xinglu]

aplogies on the spelling, mr X!

LOL no worries, I figured you're fingers got away from you!

 

[Josh Oakley]

I remember something about our actual animal forms coming from Tak Wah Eng. Actually, I also remember learning USSD's Shaolin Tiger and asking where it was from and being told it came from "Master Tak", although, my instructor had no idea who tak wah eng was.

 

[dianhsuhe]

I remember something about our actual animal forms coming from Tak Wah Eng. Actually, I also remember learning USSD's Shaolin Tiger and asking where it was from and being told it came from "Master Tak", although, my instructor had no idea who tak wah eng was.

It would concern me if my instructor did not know that...LOL

 

[Josh Oakley]

I'm not. She knows his martial arts. That's what I care about. I care about what he can teach me. He and his instructor aren't focused on the history. I can respect it, based on all he's done for his students and his dedication to the art.

I personally want to know the history, so I know the history, but knowing the history doesn't really make me better at the martial arts than my instructor, last time I checked.

 

[dianhsuhe]

What is that saying? "Those who don't know History are...."

I just said I would be concerned...

If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned, I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.

Does the training manual still list Mattera coming from Cerio coming from Professor Chow? ( hope not)

 

[Josh Oakley]

What is that saying? "Those who don't know History are...."

I just said I would be concerned...

If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned, I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.

Does the training manual still list Mattera coming from Cerio coming from Professor Chow? ( hope not)

Actually, it doesn't even list Cerio anymore. Frankly I wonder why they even bother putting in a history section, if history is going to be so downplayed in importance.

 

[Josh Oakley]

What is that saying? "Those who don't know History are...."

I just said I would be concerned...

Yes. It was totally unreasonable for me to draw the conclusion that you were implying that I should be concerned as well. How silly of me to think that someone typing in english in a public forum would ever do that.

So then, if you were not implying that, then perhaps you were trying to get me to ask, "why would it concern you?"

Okay, I'll bite. Why would it concern you?


If it's not one of those two thinks, I can't see the point of your post. Please help me.

BTW. Not all USSD instructors are kool-aid drinkers. Amazingly enough, there are many of us with our own brains. It's crazy, I know. But i've been a martial artist long before USSD and if I leave I'll still be a martial artist. I would assume that if I got all my information solely from USSD, you'd have a valid point that I drink the Kool-aid (which I took to mean I'm a blind follower of the party line). Thing is, I'm too much a free thinker to do that. I've actually--gasp-- disagreed with my DM on many occasions. AMAZING!

So don't insult my intelligence, and don't weasel out of claims you make or imply. You had a reason for posting. Don't back down now, based on a prejudiced oppinion of someone you've never even met. I don't represent USSD. I represent ME.

Heck, the fact that I can actually comment on something about a possible villari-parker connection should be proof enough that I don't just follow the manual.

 

[dianhsuhe]

I wish you well but realize dialogue does not generally prove effective against such students.

...

 

[Josh Oakley]

You're a prejudiced, closeminded pseudointellectual, and if you weren't going to discuss something with me, you shouldn't have posed a response to something I said, especially given your prejudice against USSD instructors. your words don't line up.

So dialogue doesn't prove effective against students who drank the kool-aid, but even though you believe that and believe that statement applies to me, YOU began talking to ME. Let's keep that clear.

Now I've challenged your stance and you go all ad hominim circumsantial on me.

Coward.

Go ahead and just repost those three dots again so you can sit there all smug in your own superiority. You won't finish what you start? Cool. I've got better things to do. Have your last word, if you can't resist. Either way, I'm still calling you an pathetic, passive-agressive pansy.

Grow a pair, you useless malcontent.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you are with U.S.S.D. you have already drank the kool-aid as far as I am concerned,

Such accusations can be made about virtually anyone who belongs to any lineage. "What? You follow XXXX Sensei? He's a crazy deceiver. You've clearly drunken from the kool aid."

I've had such things said to me here on the forums, as a practitioner of the Tracy method. It sucks and it's prejudiced bull-****.

Comments like that do not open doors, nor encourage dialogue.

Jamey, I'd like to encourage you to rethink that comment. Thanks.