How to Combine Wing Chun with Aikido

Discussion in 'MartialTalk Magazine Articles' started by matrixman, Jan 20, 2010.

  1. matrixman

    matrixman Yellow Belt

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    Most martial arts don’t fit together in an easy fashion. You take the circular hands of kenpo Karate and try to put them atop the linear stances of hard core shotokan, and you are going to get an uncoordinated mish mash. Or, the fast and hard jabs of boxing might fit with wing chun, but the round house power punches don’t fit at all.

    And, occasionally, there are going to be arts that do fit together easily. You can put aikido together with the martial arts of pa kua chang, but it is going to take logic and discipline to categorize individual techniques. And, this leaves the developer with a problem of how do you teach the resulting art without confusing.

    That all said, I was taking an Aikido class one day, I was a mere beginner in that art, though I had seven years of kenpo and karate and a bit of wing chun. So they asked me to partake in randori. which is the freestyle aikido employs to train students. And, it was a sad experience, at best.

    I didn’t want to give them my punches, karate had taught me to lock my stance down, and the result was that nobody could throw me, and the give and take of the randori exercise wasn’t working. I hold fault with no one, it was mixing claymores and corkscrews, and one could argue they should have been able to make their art work, but I should have been able to work with them. Interestingly, after class things became interesting.

    One of the higher ranked black belts, name of Paul, came up to me and wondered where the breakdown had been. Lower black belts kept their distance, but he wanted to learn, and that was the mark of a higher level belt.

    So I told him how I had been taught to lock down my stance, and we looked at that in connection with aikido techniques, and how things could have been different. Nothing seemed to fix the problem, until I asked him if he had ever heard of sticky hands. When I demonstrated the drill to him the lights began to go on.

    Wing Chun, you see, has stances that are higher and more mobile, and we spent hours figuring out how to get the feet to go fast enough to keep up with the aikido centrifugal action. Slowly, we figured out how the feet were supposed to cross or circle in time with the attack. We began to explore higher techniques, Paul excited because of all he was learning, I was grinning because I was getting a super advanced lesson in higher Aikido concepts that the other fellows in the school, the lower black belts, would have died for.

    It takes an extreme common sense to put arts together, and very few people are successful at the endeavor. I succeeded wildly, and this because I always seem to run into people that are willing to share what they learn. If you think you know it all, if you’re proud, if you think you are better than other students, then you will never open your mind and be able to absorb all the wonderful truth that flows so freely on this plane of existence.

    Al Case has studied martial arts for over forty years. He has written for the magazines and had his own column in Inside Karate. He has developed the science of Matrixing, which enables an artist to de-corrupt his art and return it to original workability. You can get a free ebook about his method at Monster Martial Arts.
     
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  2. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Sounds like an add for Alton Case's books etc.

    I bet he has not been able to matrix the art of Judo's newaza... that has grown into things such as brazilian jiu jitsu, Russian Sombo, Celtic Catch wrestling or American freestyle wrestling.

    Until Alton Case case can crack that nut... by matrices...
    I cannot see spending money on his books.
    Although I am curious about his book on clasical karate.
    Specifically what he has to say about Kata Nihanchi #1.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    I wouldn't hold your breath… or suggest you're missing much. Most of Al's posts here are thinly veiled ads… and, when questioned, he dodges and ducks, feigns humility, and tries to get all philosophical and poetic… with little skill in either. Do a search for him and you'll see some… interesting… conversations…
     
  4. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Thank you, mate.
    Ya he is all about that money (like way too many teachers). My gut feeling is that the businesss is a McDojo by mail, diploma mill. But at the same time he has "some" real world karate skills, if you showed up in person. Maybe... a less famous, low rent, off brand Ed Parker.

    I hope no one feels attacked, or insulted by this off the cuff assessment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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  6. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Well, I havent read you link, but during my due diligence before purchasing any of the materials he sells I logged this about him.

    These direct quotes of Alton Case about himself.

    In 1969 I walked into the Kang Duk Won, and I found real Karate. I found Hell’s Angels and Imperial Bodyguards, cops and crooks, idiots and PHDs, all on the same mat. All working out. All seeking something that the western world had no idea existed, and…for the most part…still doesn’t.

    The lineage at this point included a young fellow name of Norman Rha. Norman came to the United States and taught a young fellow name of Robert (Bob) Babich.

    It was actually Bob, Mr. Babich, who brought the Kang Duk Won to its highest state. You’ve got to remember that Karate wasn’t broadly known in the United States, and that only the most die hard fanatics would sign on for a course.

    The school of the Kang Duk Won in San Jose, under Mr. Babich, had a wild variety of students. There were cops and crooks, Hells Angels and PhDs. There were students and workers of every stripe.

    It was into this school that I walked in 1969. I had two years of Karate under my belt, had become an instructor in Chinese Kenpo, and had written the instruction manual for that school. I thought I knew something, but I had no idea what I was walking into.

    Now, I grant that he learned a low rent Korean flavored version of Toyama's Shudokan Karate, mixed with Chinese Chuan. In person, I don't know about his claims of reading from a book.

    Frankly I don't care about his history. I care if I spar with him does he know his stuff. And can he actually teach skills faster then other methods.

    I smell oily conman whenever I hear astounding claims.

    But he was in somebody's dojo for two years learning karate before he learned his korean stuff in another dojo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Perhaps you should actually read the link, then.

    Reading Al's own self-serving marketing bio, with it's ridiculous claims and hyperbole, is hardly what I'd call doing any kind of "due diligence"… it's like reading only the highlighted words on a movie poster taken from larger reviews to get a sense of what the film's like…

    And you really should care about his actual history… if for nothing else, it'll put you in a better position to comment on whether or not he has any "real world karate skills"… if you did, you might know that his "two years of karate under his belt" was his own self training… which was him learning from a book. No teacher, no particular system, no guidance, and no clue. And no, he can't "teach skills faster than other methods"… again, read the thread. That's exactly what it's all about.
     
  8. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    No I could care less about his history.
    I gave you his first hand testimony, where he said he was in real dojos, not Reading books.

    Frankly, Hwang Kee claims to have learned his Karate from a few books. You going to dump on this KMA founder?

    Some people have the ability to reverse engineer, and test and recreate while filling in the blanks.

    Lastly, Alton Case isnt really worth continuing to have a discussion about. This is my last post on this subject.

    As for due diligence, did I ever say that was all I did?
    Reading bios give you names and dates... things that you can check.

    But then again, you are too much of a literalist/prescriptionist
    to be flexible enough to accept peoples style of speach.

    Due Diligence is not exactly what you think it means, if the term is being loosely employed. You are far too black and white in your reading of my words.
    Stop jumping to conclusions, Mate.

    Seriously.

    And in the future when you feel the need to correct me on a term's useage, please do me a favor and save your breath.
    I really don't like how you adress people. And your bedside manor leaves a lot to be desired, doctor.

    I hope you understand I am trying to be civil and frank, and not hostile. I am not calling you pompous, rude, condescending, pedantic... but sometimes reading your posts (not just the posts towards myself) engenders that in my mind.
    You seem like a really smart guy who is very sure about what he knows.

    My advice to you Chris (freely given, freely ignored?)

    Learn how to win people over.

    Being right for the sake of truth is an exercise in alienation.

    Willfully alienating people under the setting the record straight (or however you chose terns to frame it) is not the path of a humble man.


    Yes, you may say, I am not doing it on purpose.
    Those who feel alienated, would disagree with you.

    Not that I have read on MT that you claim to be humble.
    The presumption is that you ought to be exists.

    Generally most asian martial art traditions claim to value humility from the culture they spring out of.

    In Karate. There is a saying...
    Karate ends and begins with respect/courtesy.

    Buying what you have to say on a subject, specfically, in a correction of what I have written.... when we never have entered an agreement that you were my teacher, and I was your student ( this means I don't have to put up with poor interpersonal skills, unlike a real world teacher)
    Is not something that I have to do.

    In fact, I am now predisposed to disagree with you, even if the case apears that you are correct on a given topic.
    In which case I will ignore your general comnents I disgree with, and kindly ask you to leave me be in comments directed at mine.

    I dont come here to argue, per say. Even though there are a lot of squabbles to be had here, my primary purpose is to have fun chatting, and socializing.

    You and I are not friendly. I don't expect that will change yeah?
    I wouldn't be rude and tell you to bugger off or something like that. That would be very very insulting. Instead, I would take the time to reach out and break it down for you.

    And tell you stop bothering to bug me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Oh dear lord…

    Then don't argue with someone who knows what it is.

    No, you found an account that said that, before he found his cobbled together eclectic Korean school (which he somehow thinks has better pedigree than Okinawan or Japanese forms of karate), he had "two years experience". Nothing about being in a "real dojo", as he wasn't. It was two years experience in reading books.

    In terms of pedigree, yep.

    Some people, sure. But that's like saying that some people are Albert Einstein, so the guy down the street yelling at a signpost might be onto something… in other words, it's a completely irrelevant suggestion. But, for the record, I would be one of those people, in my estimation.

    So… you're done on the topic? That's it? Okay.

    Hang on… what's the rest of this post about then?

    Sure… but it's only one (highly biased) side of things… and is something that should only be taken as requiring much further introspection to validate or dismiss. That would actually be the due diligence required.

    You mean your use of words for something other than their actual definition? Yeah… somehow, on a purely textual communication board, I tend to assume people use the words they mean, and mean the words they say… because of what they mean.

    Perhaps you could actually use words within their actual meaning, then? And, for the record, I take due diligence to refer to a thorough investigation of a topic… which, if was actually undertaken, would most likely have shown you how skewed Al's presentation of his own story is… and would have, I don't know, included reading the specific thread he was involved in that I directed you to. The fact that you refused to even click a basic link shows a rather telling lack in your approach to research and investigation, to my mind.

    I only read what you write… even when it's something you write after I've answered.

    Here's a thing for you to consider… I don't necessarily correct you for your sake. Take your recent post on "kime" that Geezer felt was "informative"… except it was largely the opposite… so I corrected it. Or your explanations on BJJ coming from Daito Ryu that Instructor felt was "informative"… you were corrected not to get you to change your mind, but to give the wider reading audience accurate information.

    As for my "bedside manor", frankly, I don't care too much about how you take that. You might realise that my "manor" changes, hardens, based on how corrections and other comments are received… so, if you're getting a harsher approach, there are always reasons.

    So, you're trying to be civil while finding a way to call me pompous, rude, condescending, pedantic (thinking these are all going to be taken as insults) while not actually saying it to avoid breaking the TOS? Nice…

    Yes. The reason is, simply, because I am very sure about what I know… and, 99% of the time, I am borne out to be correct. I speak confidently on things I am confident and correct on in the first place.



    I am not here to do anything other than disseminate information, Tex. If you (or anyone else) gives incorrect information, I will correct it. Being right for the sake of accuracy is the point… allowing bad information to go out unchallenged for the sake of "niceness" is kinda how stupid ideas get repeated and believed… which I have no intention of allowing.

    You seem to be falling into the same problem you feel I do, Tex… deciding you know how I intend to be seen without actually having a clue.

    Why? I've actually gone out of my way to deny any claim of humility, for one thing, but why should I be?

    You really should read more… actually, scratch that, you read a fair bit. Sadly, you don't seem to grasp what you read, so I'd say that you should get better educated.

    Say, you do know that that's a co-opted phrase from common Japanese idioms, yeah? Which was "Rei ni hajimaru, rei ni owaru" (礼に始まる礼に終る)… a phrase that has nothing to do with martial arts, karate or otherwise (in essence, "rei [courtesy, respect, bowing, or many other things] is at the beginning and end of things").

    I don't have to be your teacher to know more than you, honestly… nor is there any such agreement on any forum such as this. But here's the thing… you can either listen to what you're told, learn, and grow from that… or you can stubbornly ignore everything you're being told because you have some personal issue. Your choice.

    So… you're going to just disagree with me, even when I'm right? This is a mature approach to personal conflict, is it?

    And mate, no, I am in no way agreeing to just "leave (your comments)… be". If you're wrong, I will point it out.

    Cool. But when you put down information presented as factual, correct, or accurate, and it's not, that will be called on. Okay?

    But, of course, you're not being rude… nor were you when you wrote to me, quote: "Piss off, mate"…
     

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