How to be Self-taught?

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jks9199

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Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat. It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea. I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat. I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert. And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.
In what context? Hand-to-hand fighting for a police officer? A soldier? A private citizen protecting themselves from a criminal attack? A bar fight? Fighting in a MMA match or boxing ring?

It's not so simple a thing, huh?

You want to know what people have done for "solo training" in the past? Look at the kata or forms in various martial arts. One sort of form was developed as a way to study and practice the fighting principles of a martial system.

You say you're trying to learn about "skill acquisition." That's a broad field -- have you even looked into the psychology of learning? You can certainly develop some skill in movement, but in isolation, it's kind of like trying to learn to play a musical instrument as part of a band without actually playing with anyone else. Or learning to play football by running pass patterns or practicing blocking schemes all by yourself. There are nuances and elements that you simply aren't likely to find without the direct input of an experienced instructor. And, if you do, it'll be at the expense of pain and wasted time on trial and error.

Here's another analogy, for what it's worth. It's certainly possible to travel across the Atlantic by first improvising a float by grabbing a log, then deciding to hollow it out into some sort of dugout canoe, and so on until you've built yourself an oceangoing liner. Or by doing experiments with kites, then building a powered plane looking at the Wright brothers's work, then a larger plane, and again through the stages to an SST. Don't you have better things to do with your time, since you can book passage on an existing liner or airplane, and get there in a matter of hours or weeks? What do you hope or expect to gain by your experiment with solo skill development that you couldn't gain by working with an instructor?
 
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marvelous65

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You do realize that this is...silly? How does beating on a bob, without instruction, teach you any kind of strategy? You don't absorb any deeper knowledge by just making something up out of whole cloth.[/QUO

How do you think getting lessons in martial arts will teach you anything that will be of relevant use outside of a dojo or in unlikely self-defense situations?

It is obvious that lessons will be learned in studying martial arts (with instruction) that are applicable to things that do not involve fighting. Just as obvious is that (but not to you or your martial arts cohorts) learning rudimentary hand to hand combat skills will be relevant to studies which overlap with hand to hand combat.
 

hoshin1600

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Maybe part of the frustration in this conversation is the perception of what martial arts is. my wife can drive a car. At what point of driving does one become a race car driver? My brother can do little jobs around the house and is quite handy. At what point of being handy does he become a licensed plumber or carpenter? A piece of wood is not a baseball bat. My brother can throw a good punch but it is not the same punch that I would throw. Even if I showed him how I do it he would still not be a martial artist.
You can punch your Bob, watch ufc and read all the books. It doesn't make you a martial artist and your not doing martial arts. At best you are a street fighter. Semantics maybe but I believe this is the heart of the debate. Serious practioners view what you are attempting as nothing more than a photo copy. A street fighter. Many of us use quil and ink painstakingly training for years to earn the right and privilege to call ourselves true masters of the arts. A copy doesn't grind the ink or know the feel of the pen. How the ink flows on the paper. A copy is only an empty shell. You will be nothing more than a street fighter.
 

ShotoNoob

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Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual. Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.

Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical. That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills. Otherwise you are just winging it....
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I agree there's something critical about human interaction. Yet, I got a set of TKD videos from an instructor endorsed by Chuck Norris. They really help in going over concepts with having to maintain the pace of an organized class where the instructor calls the shots...
 
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marvelous65

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Maybe part of the frustration in this conversation is the perception of what martial arts is. my wife can drive a car. At what point of driving does one become a race car driver? My brother can do little jobs around the house and is quite handy. At what point of being handy does he become a licensed plumber or carpenter? A piece of wood is not a baseball bat. My brother can throw a good punch but it is not the same punch that I would throw. Even if I showed him how I do it he would still not be a martial artist.
You can punch your Bob, watch ufc and read all the books. It doesn't make you a martial artist and your not doing martial arts. At best you are a street fighter. Semantics maybe but I believe this is the heart of the debate. Serious practioners view what you are attempting as nothing more than a photo copy. A street fighter. Many of us use quil and ink painstakingly training for years to earn the right and privilege to call ourselves true masters of the arts. A copy doesn't grind the ink or know the feel of the pen. How the ink flows on the paper. A copy is only an empty shell. You will be nothing more than a street fighter.
Good!
 

Mephisto

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You people don't seem to understand. There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not. I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy. I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult. And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons. Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized. If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt. On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.
You may be right in some cases.
Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing

In my opinion this is crap. It's bad. If at some point In your journey you want to engage in some friendly soarring, I'd be happy to oblige. Not meaning this as a threat, just a genuine offer, I'm surprised no one else has presented it yet. I'm I central FL near the theme parks so I don't expect anything to happen but I'm certainly willing to train or spar if you're ever around.
 
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marvelous65

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There are principles to skill acquisition which I will briefly explain. One is to break down a skill into sub skills; so for fighting arts you'd want to learn sub skills like parries, kicks, footwork, and so on. My training thus far has been for developing sub skills. But the other principle which I will divulge here is that you have to set a target skill level and then develop a plan to attain that skill level. Before this lengthy debate with all of you I was wishy washy about what skill level I felt I should attain. In journaling this morning I figured out an objective relevant to my skill level that I will achieve in studying martial arts - I will find an independent teacher. Yes, I know this whole thing was about being self-taught but independent learning does not exclude learning from independent teachers as much as it does indoctrinating yourself into a school. So for all of you who stuck around to see how this conversation would end up - thanks.
 

Mephisto

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There are principles to skill acquisition which I will briefly explain. One is to break down a skill into sub skills; so for fighting arts you'd want to learn sub skills like parries, kicks, footwork, and so on. My training thus far has been for developing sub skills. But the other principle which I will divulge here is that you have to set a target skill level and then develop a plan to attain that skill level. Before this lengthy debate with all of you I was wishy washy about what skill level I felt I should attain. In journaling this morning I figured out an objective relevant to my skill level that I will achieve in studying martial arts - I will find an independent teacher. Yes, I know this whole thing was about being self-taught but independent learning does not exclude learning from independent teachers as much as it does indoctrinating yourself into a school. So for all of you who stuck around to see how this conversation would end up - thanks.
That's great! Keep in mind a lot of learning done in martial arts is done training alone, so in some respects you must be "self taught" to understand a movement. It seems the guys I work with that train at home or at the gym alone outside of class are much better than those who only train in class.

Not sure what style you're thinking of training but I'll throw out a recommendation for the Filipino Martial Arts. Collectively known as Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali these arts are still gaining popularity and many groups train out of garages, parks, and other schools. The small group learning format is great for learning and there's less "indoctrination" and often a more open minded learning approach.
 
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marvelous65

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That's great! Keep in mind a lot of learning done in martial arts is done training alone, so in some respects you must be "self taught" to understand a movement. It seems the guys I work with that train at home or at the gym alone outside of class are much better than those who only train in class.

Not sure what style you're thinking of training but I'll throw out a recommendation for the Filipino Martial Arts. Collectively known as Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali these arts are still gaining popularity and many groups train out of garages, parks, and other schools. The small group learning format is great for learning and there's less "indoctrination" and often a more open minded learning approach.


I have a friend who teaches and studies various martial arts where I live. I'm thinking I'm going to attempt to pick him up as an informal mentor.
 

Gnarlie

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There are aspects of any form of exacting physical activity that are very difficult to learn even with an instructor to explain the principles and exaggerate them for your observation. Self-learning supports learning with an instructor but can not replace it. Learning WITH an instructor is hard enough.

Here's a favourite quote relating to Taekwondo, seeing as you have a background there maybe it will speak to you:

"In time, the truncal twist will be spontaneous in all actions, will become shortened in execution time, and will be almost imperceptible to an observer. This is the reason why it is so difficult for students to learn the movement from their instructors unless it is purposely exaggerated to allow observation. Certain points need elaboration." - GM Kim Bok Man on basic principles, in "Taekwondo: Defense Against Weapons".

As the trunk twist is a key principle for Taekwondo power generation, and learning alone would not lead you to it, you would just be waving your arms and legs around unless you covered it with an instructor.
 

donald1

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I dont know your friend, you may actually learn a thing or two. The reason why I think an instructor would be a preferred choice a good instructor will have the experience, knows what their doing, and the students are less likely to get hurt
 

Transk53

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I dont know your friend, you may actually learn a thing or two. The reason why I think an instructor would be a preferred choice a good instructor will have the experience, knows what their doing, and the students are less likely to get hurt

And thankfully in my experience there are a hell of good instructors with sound advice. Some of my theory regarding things, have been shot down straight away. And for the good!
 

Brian R. VanCise

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And you will not discover it without a good teacher.

At best, you will be practicing "martial arts inspired movement as exercise" and that is definitely not the same thing. We are trying to help you understand that.

Absolutely!

..I wonder are you just messing with us?? is good though! :) Jx

Yes, I think this is the case.


Anyways, in response to the OP without instruction and based on what you have said you are not practicing the martial way you are playing at practicing it. You do not really want to put in the real effort it requires and learn from someone experienced enough to teach you. Instead, because you have acquired a non-physical skill somewhere else you wish to try and "do it yourself". Throughout the years I have met some people who "taught themselves". Invariably, and putting this bluntly their efforts were pathetic. I can remember one self trained guy who came into my training hall specifically and kind've wanted to test himself. So he tried out some classes and quickly it was apparent that he had ingrained incredibly bad habits. Eventually we did some relaxed grappling and my guy's played with him. They could do anything they wanted at any time. He eventually left in frustration and worse probably ruined himself from ever actually learning anything of value in the martial sciences.

jks9199 mentioned above that if you want to do this "go for it" have fun, knock yourself out. Just do not expect serious martial practitioner's to approve or expect you to achieve anything. However, if you at some point want to learn and become a martial practitioner then please seek out someone qualified! Realize you probably do not know anything and approach training with a true willingness to learn!

Good luck......
 
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marvelous65

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I still don't intend on being dedicated to the martial arts; I'll get pointers here and there from the friend I mentioned as I have already said. But about twenty to twenty five minutes a day on my BoB will suffice for what I'm looking to get out of my training. Maybe I won't be a martial artist by the standards of those who have previously posted on this thread. Maybe I won't be one of the cool kids of the martial arts who can really fight. Regardless of if my efforts at training result in anything that all of you would regard as martial arts I thank you for helping me to understand that I need coaching. What is important about our debate isn't that I learn proper techniques for fighting, however. It is that I have stepped outside the bounds of what I thought was a practical way in which to approach the martial arts.
 

Transk53

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I still don't intend on being dedicated to the martial arts; I'll get pointers here and there from the friend I mentioned as I have already said. But about twenty to twenty five minutes a day on my BoB will suffice for what I'm looking to get out of my training. Maybe I won't be a martial artist by the standards of those who have previously posted on this thread. Maybe I won't be one of the cool kids of the martial arts who can really fight. Regardless of if my efforts at training result in anything that all of you would regard as martial arts I thank you for helping me to understand that I need coaching. What is important about our debate isn't that I learn proper techniques for fighting, however. It is that I have stepped outside the bounds of what I thought was a practical way in which to approach the martial arts.

Take it from me, it don't work. You have to have that inner feeling that something ain't quite right, that is the person on the periphery. You have to go further, otherwise you may throw that elbow and crack your elbow. Someone from a TKD background must surely know that. Brings me to believe that such a venture as yours is just plain pointless. We have a saying on the door - "15 minute heroes" Not that I am implying anything, just suspicious of the blog intends!
 

Buka

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I guess the best way to learn alone would be to figure out what kind of learner you are. If you're primarily a visual learner, (and have wrestling and tae-kwon-do experience) youtube could serve you well.

You mentioned about the 640 muscles in the body. I think if you gained an understanding of their function (fairly easy research) it might help you in your quest as well.

Whichever way you go at it - have fun. Martial Arts should be fun.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Folks,

I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project. I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community. So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes. Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag. With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont). I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes. So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?

Hmm.

Look, I kinda want to go through the entire thread here, but honestly, it'd take too long... so I'm just going to hit the major points... starting with what I feel is the biggest issue present.

You really don't seem to get what martial arts are.

I'll elaborate...

There is no one thing called "martial arts". There is no one skill set that is central, or universal to all martial arts. In fact, your attempt to focus on techniques is really, when all's said and done, not really anything to do with actually learning a martial art. The reality is that techniques are really nothing more than the particular expression of what a martial art really is... which leads us directly to what exactly a martial art is.

A martial art is a particular approach to certain combative questions and contexts. As such, you can't learn "martial arts"... you learn a particular martial art. And, of course, that means that you can't learn a specific methodology by making stuff up and randomly hitting a BOB. It's like saying that you're intending to see how you go self-teaching yourself a language by sitting in a room making sounds, with no thought to grammar, syntax, etymology, spelling, writing, or anything else related.

You've mentioned a few things... principles, tactics, strategies... but haven't really given any mention to anything specific. Different arts have different principles, often contradictory with other systems... same goes with tactics. So how can you know what principles or tactics you should be addressing or employing in your attempt to learn "martial arts"? I mean... the tactic of "control the fight to the ground, and employ submissions to gain success" is not exactly compatible with the tactic of "remain standing and attack from a distance before escaping". Both are quite valid, but neither really suits the other... and both lead to very different martial arts.

However, to address your reasoning, namely that you feel that this endeavour is not too dissimilar to other pursuits you've attempted, and that you're somehow better positioned to have success, despite you're complete lack of understanding of what you're even attempting, then let me just say this: You're not special. You're not different. You're attributes, no matter what you may believe, aren't that unique, or even applicable to this. It really doesn't matter how "disciplined" you feel you are... as, frankly, that has nothing to do with anything here. The ability to teach yourself chess is honestly similarly meaningless, and the idea of you being a writer is quite besides the point (and, I might say, has simply added to your perception of yourself as being special in some way... judging purely on your posts here, I'd be hesitant to blow that particular horn).

You asked for a reason that you can't do it... well, honestly, the main reason is that you don't seem to understand what you're attempting to do. It's like you're asking about teaching yourself maths... then ignoring any questions about whether you're wanting to learn algebra, trigonometry, geometry, calculus, or what... saying that you don't even want anyone to teach you how to write numbers, as you can figure them out by yourself.

By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you. I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.

Oh, and I'd recommend against such passive aggressive tones... they can easily be interpreted as trolling... which is a quick path out the door... friendly heads up there.
 

WaterGal

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Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing


So just some basic head/neck/face strikes and a bit of silly stuff? I honestly was kinda hoping it really would be some EPIC BRUTAL things worthy of the title.
 
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