How Should Women do Push-ups

Discussion in 'Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists)' started by FieldDiscipline, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    But if you're on your knees your feet are no longer the fulcrum, your knees are.

    The centre of mass will not move away from your hips by the length of your shins, it'll be less than that.

    The distance from the new fulcrum (knees) is shorter than the distance from the original fulcrum (feet).
     
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  2. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    No he is correct, it will move the centre of mass closer to your head, but not by as much as it moves it closer to the fulcrum, for the reasons you give above, the lower legs are long, but not very heavy
     
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  3. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    I mis-explained.

    See previous post.
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Yes agree, see above it moves it up, but not by as much as it moves it back, ie your new centre of mass is still closer to th q fulcrum and your shins are not heavy, it won't move it up by an equal amount at all
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Distance from the feet only matters as much as distance from the hands. If you increase both proportionately, you don't change the MA.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    That includes both halves - if that's what he mean, I misread it.
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    ??? But moving the hands forward also makes it harder,?? Try doing a Spider-Man push up and tell me that easier, moving your hands closer( backwards) toWards the centre of mass makes it easier( as long as you don't go to far) somewhere near the nipple, which it's self is difficult to do with long arms

    I've given two links supporting what I've said, how about one from you supporting what you say?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    That's changing the way the muscles are doing their work, to put more weight upon different muscles. Distance from the fulcrum isn't the controlling factor there.

    Okay. Which parts did you need me to provide support for? All I've done is provide a basic equation for mechanical advantage with a second class lever, and discuss how you can't made an evaluation of that system by discussing only one of the numbers.
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Ok my point is being taller makes press ups more difficult,AND I've provided I LINks to support that Your it seems is that it doesn't ? So a link to that effect would do nicely

    Here I've even Google it for you, now you only have to find one that agreed with you
    does being taller make press ups more difficult - Google Search
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I didn't see anything in that link that refers to something contrary to what I've said. I even pointed out that it includes some things that are outside the factors we've discussed (stability, etc.). It makes reference to a second class lever, but specifically to point out that they are subject to stability effects that change the effort required.

    Nothing I said is contrary to that. I've just pointed out that simply making the COM further from the fulcrum doesn't necessarily reduce the mechanical advantage. It's moving it proportionately (to the full effective length of the lever) further from the fulcrum that does so.
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    No your just repeating an opinion, I'm asking for some reputable link that actually agrees with what you keep saying your opinion is, to be honest I don't think you find on, but you never know
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not really an opinion. Which part are you unfamiliar with? The basic equation for MA? Once I know what you need, I can provide it.
     
  13. Rat

    Rat Orange Belt

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    Since this has been reved. From what i remember, i haven't seen them do it differently. Not in PE or the fitness things i have done, some have done knees but that can be ruled out as not being able to lift themselves at full extension. just my experience, if there is a correct way i haven't seen it. I also think the military expects you to do normal push ups as well, granted less than males.
     
  14. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Your saying I am wrong in my statement, that being taller makes push up harder,, so I would like you to or provide a link that supports your opinion that I am incorrect
     
  15. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    Right, so here's the thing.

    "Harder" is a relative term.

    So, let's get relative.

    A person is built to a certain design parameter. There is a formula for size and weight. There is obviously a tolerance on overall size and proportion.

    I'm going to discount/ignore the extremes - if you're 7'8" and 150lbs, you're out. If you're 4'6" and 300lbs, you're out.

    If I go to my knees, I find a pushup harder, even though it's measurably lighter - but that's effectively because it's made me 4' tall, about 120lbs, with arms that would reach the floor - in other words, outside of one of the extremes.

    So, is it actually "harder" for a tall person or "easier" for a short person who isn't critically deformed so as not to conform to the human model?

    I say no, it's the same.

    Because of the formula, the mean numbers might be higher or lower, but as a percentage of the person I bet they're damn near identical.

    Me turning myself into some weird ape type creature only changed the number by 10-15% - and guess what? That's about in line with the change in effective body weight and height.

    But, that single number doesn't account for the relative change in proportion. If your proportions could be described as remotely normal, it scales.

    So, the change in percentage terms is tiny.

    I don't consider myself particularly fit or strong, but I can load up with over 150% of my pushup weight and still do it.

    Am I going to say "oh well, you're taller so it's 5% heavier for you, poor thing" - am I heck as like.

    Suck it up snowflake, it's not more difficult. It's just an excuse.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Your going off at a tangent here, but you do seem to have finally admitted that a push up is a lever and height is a factor in difficulty, SO good on you for that,, harder is not an relative term, it's an absolute term, it's either harder or its not and it is

    There's two ways of doing a comparison, weight for weight, the taller person is lifting a greater %of body weight,

    Or if they wEigh less, they are quite possibly lifting the same body weight, or maybe more or maybe less dependent on the figures involved, it's still harderLB, for pound, the difference could be miniscule or it could be significant,

    I'm two inches taller and three stone heavier than you, that makes the relatively small difference in our height more significant as I'm lifting a higher % of a significantly greater weight let's say for arguments sale in lifting 70 % of 200lbs and your lifting 68% 150lbs, that's some differance,,

    But you are one of those extremes, you talked about, 5,11 11stone adult males are not common, your weight is more likely to be associated with someone who is 5,6, in which case the difference that height makes us fat more noticeable
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  17. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    But, you lifting 70% of 200lb (if you weigh 200lb) is pretty much the same as me lifting 68% of 150lb.

    Because, you have to shift that 200lb ALL THE TIME.

    You should be used to it.

    Your muscles will have developed to shift that 200lb (or whatever proportion of it they move) whereas mine will only have developed to shift my 150lb.

    Putting the same percentage overload on any of them will mean the actual measured weight is higher for you than me, yet the percentage is identical.

    So, you're really saying that either your muscles are drastically underdeveloped, or mine are massively overdeveloped.

    Or maybe you're saying that everybody's muscle structure is identical irrespective of their height or weight?

    That's patently crap, because if you take someone of approximately the same fitness level as me at 200lb and me at 150lb, put a 50lb pack on me to balance the weight, then make us race, I bet I'd tire sooner. Because I'm not used to the weight. I've been loaded beyond my norm. Doesn't mean I'm less fit, or necessarily weaker.

    So how is it different for pushups?
     
  18. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    20 years ago, when I was the same height but 1/2 stone lighter, I was spot on the UK average.

    The average has only been skewed by the proliferation of chubbies wobbling around recently.

    Even taking that into account, I'm still within a few percent of the new average, nowhere near extreme.
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Well no you Must have an abnormal low body fat %,.

    The fastest way to be better at push up is to lose fat,
    Strength doesn't increase proportionately to weight or even proportional to muscle size

    Children are stronger pound For pound than most adults,

    Most 7 year old girls can use monkey bars , very few adult males can,
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  20. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    Not my fault if the new modern man lets himself go to that extent.
     

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