How Should Women do Push-ups

Discussion in 'Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists)' started by FieldDiscipline, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Maybe, the the mechanical advantage of having longer lever would be on the other side of the fulcrum to the long lever, or past your feet where there is no actual weight to lift,
     
  2. Superperson

    Superperson Yellow Belt

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    I have watched videos about proper form when doing a full range push up as to help me be able to do one. I will say they never mentioned your advice about tensing so I'm going to try that and see if It help! I thought it was my form that was preventing me from doing one. I had found that when I do them on my knees it was still challenging but I felt it working my arms. I still go back and try to do them on my toes during a workout. I would try to do my 15 on my toes, then switch to the knees to try again.
    I appreciate your advice!
     
  3. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Think of push ups as a plank, with some movement up and down, it's general easier to lift something stiff than something that all floppy,

    Push ups do the arms/ shoulders, but all so do the plank benifits, if you Tense everything else, but your arms and shoulders
     
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  4. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    Tensing was the one thing that made the biggest difference to me - the only thing I can think of is comparing lifting a bottle of water or a bag that slips about - which is easier to control?

    Always engage everything you can, anything that is free to flop about will just rob energy. It works (for me) with every exercise.
     
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  5. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    A press ups is what's know as a,second class lever, having long legs ( or just being tall)moves the centre of mass( some where around your hips) further from the fulcrum, that effectively makes it heavier to lify, whilst clearly your body weight remains the same, Possibly easier with pictures ?
    Class Two Lever Examples
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Or if the lever extends beyond the weight (if the fulcrum is at one end).
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Distance from the lever is proportional, not absolute, if I recall correctly ("halfway" is more informative than how many inches, when comparing two levers of differing lengths) - or maybe it's a combination of the two factors. Anyway, if the lever is the mass, the length of the lever doesn't make a difference, I think (assuming the mass is constant).
     
  8. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Did you actually read that, it's the centre of mass that the whole point of levers, with a level one lever, length makes it easier as the longer lever moves the centre of mass to your advantage, with a leVel two lever, moving the centre of mass away from the fulcrum makes it more difficult, that primary level physics,

    It's not proportional, taller peOplrhave a higher centre of mass, always, that's why they can't turn on a sixpence, if they lie down, it's further away from the fulcrum,( their feet) So its harder to lift
    Here's another link that's more explicit to press ups,
    Are Push-Ups More Difficult for a Tall Person to Do?
     
  9. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    Oh, I see, you're considering the centre of mass to be a static point load...

    So, let's say in a full length pressup your centre is around your hips (mine is slightly above).

    Now switch to knees, because you've effectively negated the weight of more than half your knees, your lower legs and part of feet, the centre now moves closer to your head - by about the same proportion as you've shortened your 'lever'.

    This means that centre mass based point load lever dynamics are almost useless in determining the change in weight moved by your arms because it considers insufficient variables. If you really must simplify it with static point loading, you need to put the point almost at the end of the 'lever' for it to make almost any sense.
     
  10. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    See my previous message, that article is not considering all the variables.
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    No if you shorten your legs, the centre of maAs moves closer to the fulcrum, you feet or your knees in this case, making it significantly lighter to lift
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    Well what variables are there that make any actual difference, to the statement that shorten the lever makes it easier, can you give an actual example
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    But you've removed a portion of the mass by shortening the unit (your body), so the centre moves up from where it was.

    It may be closer to the fulcrum, but by less than you imply.
     
  14. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    So, it's closer to the fulcrum I didn't specify an amout, and even basic level physics insists Thats easier to lift, you move a really light bIt by% by cutting out your lower legs,
     
  15. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    I never said it was equal, you're arguing against nothing.

    My measurements showed a difference, any calculation you like will show a difference.

    You included insufficient detail in your argument, which only logically allowed one interpretation of your understanding of the facts.

    You only specified one location for a point load, and even implied with your argument that it remains "near your hips".

    When all is said and done, the difference is not significant enough to prevent performing pressups with proper technique.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    I asked for you to give another interpretation of the facts that significantly contradicts the statment, that shortening the lever in a presS ups makes it easier, which you haven't this far done,

    It's easier by Varrying amounts right through the range of motion, so it's still easier with a shorter lever, where ever you choose to measure it,
     
  17. pdg

    pdg Master Black Belt

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    And I don't need to, because even my real world measurements show that it's 'lighter' on your knees than on your toes.

    What it doesn't show is that probably because of the different angles at play I find it more difficult and uncomfortable (not in an effort way, in a motion way) to do push-ups on my knees.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you compare two levers of equal length, that's correct. The math changes if the length of the levers also change. The basic formula for mechanical advantage for class 2 levers is MA = d1 / d2 (MA = mechanical advantage, d1 is effective lever length, d2 is distance from fulcrum to weight). So, the mechanical advantage is identical between two levers - regardless of their length - if the weight is suspended halfway between fulcrum and point of effort (effective end of the lever). In both cases, the mechanical advantage is 2.

    It is farther from the fulcrum, but is it proportionately so? That's something I don't know the answer to. If you're 25% taller than me, is your COM also 25% higher, or is it more of a difference? A quick skim of that article does show it makes some good points (further to move the mass, more issues with stability, etc.).
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think you moved the effective center incorrectly, or I just misunderstood your post. The lower legs are less dense-by-length than most of the body, so removing them from the lever should effectively move the COM closer (proportionately) to the fulcrum point. Or I'm confused, which is always a possibility.
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    It doesn't matter if it's proportionate or not, it's higher, always and therefore always further away from you feet, and so from the fulcrum when doing press ups
     

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