How Rank is Handled in the Bujinkan.

[Seattletcj]

I don't see critics of the Bujinkan ranking system ripping into the "mismatch" of age and rank in Aikido, political appointment by the founder of the art, or complaining about Ueshiba's adding of ranks as "playing very loose and flexible."

Actually if you look, you will find just as much critique, if not more.

This focus on "rank" and "age" and "objectiveness" is *PURELY* a 20th century creation, based more on Western influences than anything else. Again, it is an influence of the low context need of Americans, imo.

This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc. To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart, then the Japanese people themselves will earn you the label of henna gaijin I believe, and is kind of silly. There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc.

Well, sure, but I do believe that the knowledge and philosophy contained within the stuff we're dealing with was around a bit before that started to happen.

To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart,

Has anyone stated that yet?

There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.

What is wrong however is making the assumption that everyone in the world is from the west.

 

[bencole]

Actually if you look, you will find just as much critique, if not more.

Not among those who criticize the Bujinkan for these things....

They sound just like our friend Tenguru who make these sweeping uninformed generalizations about how "Hatsumi is the one deviating from the traditional Japanese dan ranking system" when that is sooooooo far from the truth.

These same people criticize giving rank for things other than skill and complain about the age of judans or higher. It's always the same uninformed drivel based upon some fantasized world of what Japanese Budo "should be" (but never traditionally has been).

Only the names of the 20-year-old posters change.

This does not change the fact thet the vast majority of actual Japanese people, for whatever reasons have changed focus to "objectiveness", or western influences etc.

Hatsumi-sensei certainly hasn't. I swear that man is from a previous century! His language is vexing for Japanese themselves, and the spirit with which he approaches his Budo is not of this century, imo.

To say that the hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students know more about the Japanese heart, then the Japanese people themselves will earn you the label of henna gaijin I believe, and is kind of silly.

Who said anything about "hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students" understanding the Japanese heart! LOL! You must know a bunch of people I don't know! LOL!

There is nothing wrong or inferior about being an American, or being from the west BTW.

Not at all. But in understanding Japanese budo, it does act as a handicap to be unaware of the contextual nature of the Japanese way. That's why I have suggested for years that people study Japanese to be able to learn the art in its actual language and/or read up on the cultural differences.

One book I recommend is called "Hidden Differences: Doing Business with the Japanese" by Hall & Hall. It has little to do with "doing business with" and more to do with "understanding," but I think the former name sells more books. LOL!

-ben

 

[Carol]

Carol, you've exceeded your storage limit for private messages.

Bad me!

Fixed now.

 

[jks9199]

I haven't personally felt like playing the "rank game" for a while... I let the people whom I have trained and the people who I respect and who respect me speak for me, if that makes sense.

I want to elaborate just a hair here, after a little thought. When rank doesn't limit what you can learn -- it doesn't have much meaning, to me. And, in my opinion, rank alone doesn't suggest teaching ability (or any other ability). There are lots of reasons why someone may or may not advance in rank within an organization; some are political, some are practical, and some are personal. And all the reasons have more than one side.

It's when rank starts to become a dividing line between what you can or can't learn that I have concerns. Again -- rank and ability aren't always the same; some people are promoted to "grow into" a rank, others are promoted in recognition of a "rank" that they've already been for a long time, without official acknowledgement. You may need a certain skill level to learn something -- but that may not match a rank.

(Anyone confused yet?)

 

[Seattletcj]

Who said anything about "hundreds of thousands of gaijin Bujinkan students" understanding the Japanese heart! LOL! You must know a bunch of people I don't know! LOL!
-ben

LOL, ya maybe a little exaggeration. Maybe I should have said thousands, or tens of thousands. I'm sure you get what I'm saying though.

 

[MJS]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-

 

[Tenguru]

Um... They certainly never seemed to mind individuals being named "Soke" or given "Menkyo Kaiden" at about that age, so I have no idea why they would be concerned with 30 year old 10th dans....

(Note: I say "10th" dans here, because the rank of "15th dan" is specific to the Bujinkan and, in all honesty, signifies multiple levels of 10th dan. Anyway...)

Your point about the Japanese being "suspicious of 30 year old mega dans" falls flat when you look at the history of martial arts.

Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi was teaching the shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu before the age of 25, and Okita Sōji (of Kondo Isami's Shinsengumi) earned Menkyo Kaiden before he was 20!

Even in the 20th century, Minoru Mochizuki received "Goshinyo no te" and "Hiden ogi no koto" of Daito Ryu from Ueshiba at the ripe age of 25 (!) and after just two years of training (!). Granted, Mochizuki had trained with Kano and others prior to that so he had skills, but come now, this idea that Japanese are suspicious of 30 year olds with mega-dans is hogwash.

As for ranks for reasons other than skill, in the 20th century again, Kisshomaru Ueshiba was placed in charge of the entire Shinjuku Kobukan Dojo at the age of 21, and after only 5 years of training with his father! (Thanks, Dad! LOL!)

Finally, as for the practice of "adding ranks" to reflect changing needs, Morihei Ueshiba personally increased the "maximum rank" in Aikido from 8th dan to 10th, when he gave Koichi Tohei 10th dan at the ripe age of 49!

I don't see critics of the Bujinkan ranking system ripping into the "mismatch" of age and rank in Aikido, political appointment by the founder of the art, or complaining about Ueshiba's adding of ranks as "playing very loose and flexible."



Please check your history. This focus on "rank" and "age" and "objectiveness" is *PURELY* a 20th century creation, based more on Western influences than anything else. Again, it is an influence of the low context need of Americans, imo.



Again, please check your history of "traditional Japanese arts."

-ben

Hehe. Ben Cole is annoyed at me. LOL.

Let me just say that after reading your very spirited post, it still stands that "30 something" tenth dans are widely considered anomalous. It has already been explained that Soke Hatsumi's ideas of rank do not correlate to kyu-dan ranks given in other martial arts styles. I believe you have posted in agreement with this position yourself.

Are you equating "30 something" 15th dans in the Bujinkan with the likes of Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi, Minoru Mochizuki, and Koichi Tohei? There are also teenagers who have earned PhD's, but it is very rare.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay let us change the way we are talking about Budo Taijutsu rank and I would ask everybody what they think are the positives behind how rank is issued in the Bujinkan.

 

[bydand]

Damn, Brian I tried to rep you for that last post, but I have to "Spread it around more first" or something like that. I agree, this is getting ........ I can't come up with the right word without sounding negitive or condesending. Reminds me of the Kenpo forums from a couple of weeks ago, people hammering on others about things they cannot change. I agree, lets focus on the positives about our art here, we have enough people who are willing to bash at every aspect of the art, we don't need to do it to ourselves. Just agree to dis-agree and refocus.

Go ahead, bash away at my post, I have broad shoulders.

 

[Cryozombie]

I would ask everybody what they think are the positives behind how rank is issued in the Bujinkan.

It starts flame wars online that amuse the hell outta me...

 

[bydand]

It starts flame wars online that amuse the hell outta me...

OK, you got me. I forgot about that aspect of it. Forget what I just said in my last post I kind of like watching how they progress as well. Lets just take it over to a different area and watch the trolls feed over there away from the Ninjutsu threads.

 

[bencole]

Let me just say that after reading your very spirited post, it still stands that "30 something" tenth dans are widely considered anomalous.

By whom?

Nearly every Japanese art going back in history has provided "menkyo kaiden" or equivalent "mega dans" to individuals under the age of 40. And that includes even the most well-known Koryu schools as well.

It has already been explained that Soke Hatsumi's ideas of rank do not correlate to kyu-dan ranks given in other martial arts styles. I believe you have posted in agreement with this position yourself.

I have posted that it is inappropriate for people to compare ranks within the Bujinkan to other individuals within the Bujinkan and to compare ranks in the Bujinkan to ranks in other arts. Similarly, it would be inappropriate to compare a 5th dan in Aikido with a 5th dan in Gosoku Ryu Karate. Each has its own requirements, and neither dan holder could hope to pass the other's "requirement" easily.

Are you equating "30 something" 15th dans in the Bujinkan with the likes of Yagyu Jubei Mitsuyoshi, Minoru Mochizuki, and Koichi Tohei?

My question back is: "Why couldn't they be?"

There are a lot of people out there who are somehow convinced that individuals these days can never achieve the greatness that others have achieved in the past. I think that is sad.

Hatsumi-sensei says that he will train us to be better than he is. And, silly me, I believe it can be done *IF* we listen to him.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of the individuals who hold the highest rank in the Bujinkan were at a level in their understanding of their Budo that Mochizuki or Tohei had when they were awarded the highest rank in their own arts.

Alas, this has nothing to do with their "rank" per se, but with their training. That's the point.

As to Brian's point, the positives of the Bujinkan ranking structure are that:

1) Each teacher is free to judge the basis of what should be rewarded and what should not be rewarded. Seeing how each student is merely replacing their own habits with those of their teachers, this is a good thing. Each teacher has certain things that s/he does well and certain things that s/he doesn't do well. It is best for people to teach what they do/know well, and for them to allow their students to seek out others to fill in other holes.

2) Students learn at different speeds, so someone may take longer to learn "Ura Gyaku" than someone else, but that someone may pick up fancy footwork faster. A grading system that would require someone to absolutely "learn Ura Gyaku" before advancing could severely hinder the growth of an individual if that grade was necessary before learning "new stuff."

The Bujinkan way of grading is completely in line with what we understand about how the human brain processes information and makes connections between seemingly unconnected things. For all we know, a sword cut learned after getting the fancy footwork down *COULD* lead the student to understand what he was doing wrong in his "Ura Gyaku"!!!

3) Rank is always personal and allows one to know how one personally stands compared to where one was before.

4) It adheres to the same spirit as old arts in the history of Japan.

5) We have five additional levels above those aikido guys, so we can wallpaper larger rooms!

-ben

 

[Don Roley]

If bujinkan ranks do not uniformly imply a relative standing or position, why make the ranks known? If it really is just a personal barometer, do you even need to know "so-in-so's" rank? Wouldn't it make more sense to just say "this person is a Shidoshi/Shihan and this person is not" or "This person was granted Menkyo Kaiden (sp?)", and leave it at that.

Just curious.

That is the way I do things. Some folks do not talk about their rank or mention it. Dale Seago, Luke Molitor, and Kreth are folks I can point to that never seem to talk about what rank they are. But everyone seems to know them and their reputation.

I looked through your past posts, and I did not see anything that led me to believe you had a lot of experience in Japan or with the Bujinkan. Maybe I can help you understand why your comment about "traditional" rank has caused some comment. Simply put, the kyu/dan system for martial arts started with Jigoro Kano and judo. Before that, if you mentioned what dan you were, people would have thought you were talking about the game of Go.

I have a rank in Go (also called Igo) and it helps a lot. If I meet up with someone new and we want to have a game, the comparison of our ranks lets us know who gets the handicap and how much of one. For sports the same pribciples apply. You need a kyu/dan system to insure that the eighth kyu does not try to compete against the seventh dan.

But that was not the case in battlefield arts.

Arts made for combat just did not have black belts or anything like that. There were certificates that cerified people for teaching the art, nothing more. For people having to get better against others, there could be no resting on their laurals because they reached a certain rank.

Hatsumi did not have dan ranks until Hayes came along. I will try to bring up the article where I think it was Manaka while he was still in the Bujinkan brings up the point that when there was only a few people training together they did not bother with ranks. I have been told that Hayes asked for a black belt after his first trip and things have kind of gone off from there.

IMO, Hatsumi really did not think about his rank structure and really does not care. For one person to try to use rank to compare themself to another is just so... so... Freudian in many ways.

I think of rank in the Bujinkan as a compliment, a pat on the back. It means that the teacher thinks more of you than before. But as a language teacher, I know I have used compliments more often with slower students that needed it than with the ones I feel proud of.

So I keep that in mind when thinking about rank. I do not call attention to my rank anymore than I let people know that I have been complimented. To do so seems conceited. If I am given a rank, I accept it and put it away and keep coming to class. I like being complimented, but it is nobody's business but my own and the person giving me rank.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

2) Students learn at different speeds, so someone may take longer to learn "Ura Gyaku" than someone else, but that someone may pick up fancy footwork faster. A grading system that would require someone to absolutely "learn Ura Gyaku" before advancing could severely hinder the growth of an individual if that grade was necessary before learning "new stuff."

The Bujinkan way of grading is completely in line with what we understand about how the human brain processes information and makes connections between seemingly unconnected things. For all we know, a sword cut learned after getting the fancy footwork down *COULD* lead the student to understand what he was doing wrong in his "Ura Gyaku"!!!



-ben

So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.
I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.

 

[Bigshadow]

So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.
I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.

I think that anology is apples to oranges regarding what Ben said. There is a difference between not knowing and knowing perfectly. Even doctors make huge mistakes from time to time because they lack the skill in certain areas. Those very same doctors may be experts in other areas of medicine as well.

 

[saru1968]

I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.

Still would make no differences as the standard by which each Instructor grades on the basis of 'set techniques' for example would be different.

We have Uni's in the Uk that run courses fro specific qualifications but the quality of the students passing these courses and obtaining the same qualification varies from area to area.

The training and gradings has to be individual in my opinion to be of value.

 

[bencole]

So with this wisdom we should let people become medical doctors without knowing what the heart does... because it limits his personal growth if we don't.

Please keep that in mind when someone you know gets cancer and your friend is thinking about going to an oncologist and you suggest that he visit a neural surgeon.

I think what the others are getting at is there should be a standard that each Shodan, Godan, Jugodan... should know and be able to share with others if so asked.

So you would have gone to see Musashi to learn kyudo, then?

Certain people are naturally more skilled at certain things and not skilled at others. I think it makes terrific sense to train with people in the things that they are most skilled at, and train with others in things that others are more skilled at.

The Bujinkan arts are *VERY* expansive and take many, many years to understand. We do not just learn how to throw people (a la Judo), or punch or kick (a la Karate), or draw swords (a la Iaido). We do *ALL* that, *PLUS* naginata, *PLUS* flexible weapons, *PLUS* water techniques, *PLUS* this, *PLUS* that.

As with any specialty (such as throwing people), it takes a lot of dedicated training (just like Judo-ka) to get good at it. Some people specialize in certain things, due to talent or interest or whatever. So doesn't it make sense to want to train with those specialists?

For example, if you want to learn Bujinkan swordwork in the U.S., you should train with Luke Molitor. Period. That means you might have to travel to train with him. But in the end, you get the best instruction that way.

In the end, by allowing people to pursue their own desires in their pursuits, you get the optimal outcome for the greater group. A guy named Adam Smith said that a while back.

-ben

 

[Fallen Ninja]

Certain people are naturally more skilled at certain things and not skilled at others. I think it makes terrific sense to train with people in the things that they are most skilled at, and train with others in things that others are more skilled at.

The Bujinkan arts are *VERY* expansive and take many, many years to understand. We do not just learn how to throw people (a la Judo), or punch or kick (a la Karate), or draw swords (a la Iaido). We do *ALL* that, *PLUS* naginata, *PLUS* flexible weapons, *PLUS* water techniques, *PLUS* this, *PLUS* that.

As with any specialty (such as throwing people), it takes a lot of dedicated training (just like Judo-ka) to get good at it. Some people specialize in certain things, due to talent or interest or whatever. So doesn't it make sense to want to train with those specialists?

-ben

Point taken.

But if there is no standard of excellence we come full circle in asking who is qualified to show anything?
And, we still have a lot of people with high ranks that may not be very effective in taijutsu and have just attained rank because of spending more time with someone... or... buying rank... or whatever. Which leaves us with confusion about who to trust in training and leads us to a very weak infastructure.
There was some postings on another forum about some 8th Dans doing some very weak taijutsu for their ranks.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But if there is no standard of excellence we come full circle in asking who is qualified to show anything?

Show to whom? :ultracool

Which leaves us with confusion about who to trust in training and leads us to a very weak infastructure.

I'm not all that confused anymore. I used to be, but now I've set up a couple of guidelines for myself at least.
First of all, I'm not fond of people who claim to do stuff *THE* correct way as opposed to everyone else.
Second, I'm distrustful of anyone who just demonstrates a whole lot of techniques without saying anything about what he's trying to accomplish.
Third, I don't like people with a "curriculum", i.e. someone who teaches the exact same stuff for years, and has a set of "routines" which he brings with him to every seminar and/or dvd (unless, of course, we're talking kihon happo).
Fourth, I don't trust anyone who speaks as if he's reading out loud from a novel.
Fifth, I try to avoid training with anyone who's so caught up in his own training that he doesn't realize anymore that what he calls "natural" doesn't feel natural at first.
Sixth, I tend to be suspicious of people who try to emphasize kamae AS OPPOSED TO establishing control, be it control over the balance of the opponent, kukan or whatever you prefer (basically someone with a kickboxing mentality).
Seventh, I try to avoid people who take themselves a bit too seriously.
And the eighth and final rule, I keep far away from people whose power I can sense coming from their arms and upper bodies.