How often do you use the more fancier Kicks?

[Dirty Dog]

This then leads me back to my statement of, if you can you will, and if you can't you won't.

This is, I think, the most concise and accurate summation possible.

Circumstances are infinately variable, so it seems more than a little foolish to declare any technique or combination of techniques unusable.

That being said, I'll add that I've used high kicks effectively in a street fight. I'll also say that it was a lot easier to do so at 17 than it likely would be today.

 

[Instructor]

Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.

 

[Miles]

Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.

Guro Dan Inosanto comes to our school every year and purportedly was once asked if head kicks were effective. He promptly swept his assistant to the ground and gestured as though he was kicking the fellow in the head while saying, "yes, head kicks are effective." One of the arts Guro Dan teaches is Silat in which hand techniques are used to strike an attacker's feet. In my Taekwondo class, I have taught punching/striking to the thighs and below (if I found myself on the ground, I'd punch/elbow my attacker's knee/thigh/groin as the situation presented itself). My (rather obtuse) point is that I wouldn't rule out punching the feet.

 

[lubowiem]

I had no idea what sort of sparring you did, thats why the first line of my post was "what type of sparring do you use?". Your sparring sounds very similar to ours. If we drop our guard we get push ups, and lots of them.

Sounds similar to ours as well, however, if we drop our guard, we get punched in the head!

 

[ATC]

When will He be old enough to make an Account on here?

Ha ha ha...Yeah I know. Too busy with school, trainng and assisting. In the dojang everyday from 5PM to close.

 

[mastercole]

Guro Dan Inosanto comes to our school every year and purportedly was once asked if head kicks were effective. He promptly swept his assistant to the ground and gestured as though he was kicking the fellow in the head while saying, "yes, head kicks are effective." One of the arts Guro Dan teaches is Silat in which hand techniques are used to strike an attacker's feet. In my Taekwondo class, I have taught punching/striking to the thighs and below (if I found myself on the ground, I'd punch/elbow my attacker's knee/thigh/groin as the situation presented itself). My (rather obtuse) point is that I wouldn't rule out punching the feet.

Yes, excellent. We do the same. We teach the concept that you can strike anywhere available, and effectively, as long as your basic technique skill is good.

 

[Cyriacus]

Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.

Id call an exception as being Kicks designed to hit High.
A Jumping Front Kick for example, aint fancy, or particularly hard. But aim it at the Midsection and thats a bit silly.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you threw two good front kicks how come he was left standing? What was good about the kicks?

I believe a 'good' kick is a kick which achieves its purpose. A kick is not only deemed 'good' if your opponent ends up in hospital. My shotokan instructor was very very anti fighting, basically if he found out you got into a fight without a very good reason, you would cop the third degree, which was very scary for a teenager. My instructor's son was in my grade at school and I was very aware this fight would get back to him. The number 1 intention of my front kicks was to get him back pedalling so I could rugby tackle him or something similar. My two kicks went straight to his rib cage and he was back pedalling rapidly with a very worried look on his face, therfore my kicks achieved exactly what I intended so I deem them good kicks. Kicks can create distance, among other things, I believe only novices believe a "good" kick needs to destroy your opponent.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I let my son read this thred. He is an up and coming Olympic style competitor. He can throw the all of the fancy kicks with relitive ease, and this is what he said.

If in a street fight he would kick the body, then once bent over he would kick the head. He said that most people would be done from simple kicks to the body and that head kicks would not really be needed. He says that he only kicks to the head in competition becaues it scores more points. He also said that it is hard to kick people in competiton to the head because they train to look out for them. He states kicking people that don't train to defend from head kicks is easy and if in a street fight he could most likely kick anyone in the head easily if they were just non martial artist. So after that thought he said he would still kick the body first but if he could tell they were not tained he would end it quickly with a head kick.

When you compete you get to the point where you asses your opponent rather quickly. This is just how competitors think. This then leads me back to my statement of, if you can you will, and if you can't you won't. Many can't so they just put down or dismiss head, high, fancy, whatever kicks. The ones that can know when to and will. Those that think they can, but are not that good at it, will try and some will succeed, and some will fail. Simple as that.

No one can 100% say it works, and know one can 100% say it does not. It is up to each individual and that individuals skill level.

Your son raises a good point ATC. When I say "head kick", I am talking about a kick aimed at the head when the head is at head level. Ive seen many a fight end successfully with a head kick once the guy is slouched over and his head is around waist level. I do it in sparring all the time. When I say head kicks are not 'advisable' in real situations and that there are higher percentage techniques which should be encouraged, I am talking about kicks to the head of a standing person.

 

[Archtkd]

I believe a 'good' kick is a kick which achieves its purpose. A kick is not only deemed 'good' if your opponent ends up in hospital. My shotokan instructor was very very anti fighting, basically if he found out you got into a fight without a very good reason, you would cop the third degree, which was very scary for a teenager. My instructor's son was in my grade at school and I was very aware this fight would get back to him. The number 1 intention of my front kicks was to get him back pedalling so I could rugby tackle him or something similar. My two kicks went straight to his rib cage and he was back pedalling rapidly with a very worried look on his face, therfore my kicks achieved exactly what I intended so I deem them good kicks. Kicks can create distance, among other things, I believe only novices believe a "good" kick needs to destroy your opponent.

I may be a novice, but if your earlier posting is accurate; your theories about kicking and possibly fighting in general left you “lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded.”

Seriously, I’m beginning to feel like we have we have a vast cultural divide that would be very hard to fill. You say you live in a world where “reality,” is casual fighting – of the school, bar room and street variety, in which “heaps” of trained martial arts participate, win and walk home to tell the tale. A world where an arrest for fighting on the streets and bars is something to laugh out loud about, with police buddies in the dojang.

Fighting in my neck of the woods is never casual. An arrest for anything, especially of a martial arts practitioner, is nothing to laugh about. Also, the chances that you won’t walk home after a “realistic” altercation are very high. So yes, for some of us in this world we learn how to punch and kick with that knowledge. We train to, or try to get to a level where the reason we fear kicking and punching to the head is not because we can’t do it, but it’s because we begin having apprehensions about the consequence of what those kicks and punches can do. At a certain stage we begin to fear hurting as much as we fear being hurt. I think this what you call “novice” thinking.

Oh, and when we train we don’t use complicated terms, tell people we are doing anything special or consult the police. We admit we are simply doing Kukkiwon style taekwondo in which learning how to punch and kick is part of the training.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I may be a novice, but if your earlier posting is accurate; your theories about kicking and possibly fighting in general left you “lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded.”

Seriously, I’m beginning to feel like we have we have a vast cultural divide that would be very hard to fill. You say you live in a world where “reality,” is casual fighting – of the school, bar room and street variety, in which “heaps” of trained martial arts participate, win and walk home to tell the tale. A world where an arrest for fighting on the streets and bars is something to laugh out loud about, with police buddies in the dojang.

Fighting in my neck of the woods is never casual. An arrest for anything, especially of a martial arts practitioner, is nothing to laugh about. Also, the chances that you won’t walk home after a “realistic” altercation are very high. So yes, for some of us in this world we learn how to punch and kick with that knowledge. We train to, or try to get to a level where the reason we fear kicking and punching to the head is not because we can’t do it, but it’s because we begin having apprehensions about the consequence of what those kicks and punches can do. At a certain stage we begin to fear hurting as much as we fear being hurt. I think this what you call “novice” thinking.

Oh, and when we train we don’t use complicated terms, tell people we are doing anything special or consult the police. We admit we are simply doing Kukkiwon style taekwondo in which learning how to punch and kick is part of the training.

I dont think there is that large of a cultural divide. Go to any club or pub late at night and chances are you will see a fight, thus the reason most clubs employ 6-10 bouncers. Young males, full of testosterone and alcohol will always get into fights. Martial arts and young males seems to go hand in hand at the moment, particularly boxing and muay thai, Id say at least 50% of the young guys I know do some form of martial arts, so its really no surprise that a large % of people who get in fights have martial arts experience. There is also no "laughing out aloud" with police buddies in the dojang about arrests for fights (I dont know where that concept came from). When you train with a police officer and are close friends with them and socialise together and do martial arts together it is only natural that at some point they will discuss their work, just as I discuss my work with them. I also wouldnt say "heaps of martial artists participate, win and walk home to tell the tale". Some win, some lose. "Casual fighting" as you put it, happens, in school yards, pubs, clubs, etc everywhere in all countries all over the world. You cant seriously sit there and tell me there are no fights occuring in school yards, pubs, clubs etc in the US.

 

[Twin Fist]

like i said, too many people that have never been hit by an ungloved hand.....

 

[Archtkd]

like i said, too many people that have never been hit by an ungloved hand.....

Twin Fist: You don't know my father.

 

[Cyriacus]

Go to any club or pub late at night and chances are you will see a fight, thus the reason most clubs employ 6-10 bouncers. Young males, full of testosterone and alcohol will always get into fights.

Especially during that 5-15 minutes after closing time.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Especially during that 5-15 minutes after closing time.

You're right there, you can bet your house you will see a fight during that period, and it has nothing to do with a cultural divide either. you can also bet your house you wont be seeing too many 'fancy' kicks getting around there either. Twin fist's point is a good one. Two black eyes and a blood nose sounds impressive, but that just two quick jabs for a good boxer, and the worst part is that you wont see it coming.

 

[Archtkd]

You're right there, you can bet your house you will see a fight during that period, and it has nothing to do with a cultural divide either. you can also bet your house you wont be seeing too many 'fancy' kicks getting around there either. Twin fist's point is a good one. Two black eyes and a blood nose sounds impressive, but that just two quick jabs for a good boxer, and the worst part is that you wont see it coming.

You don't get it, do you? You don't see any kicking because people who know how to kick and punch for that matter, rarely find themselves in the type of "reality" situations you are basing your entire debate on. Here's how bar fights go in my neck of the woods: These are just a few of the events that have occurred here recently. And by the way, I boxed for nearly nine years, still have fast hands, but I just happen to have kicked longer. Due to that. my dojang has a reputation for having folks who can hit with their hands as well as they can kick.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_b5921318-5595-11e1-9b78-0019bb30f31a.html

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_a05c7e8e-481b-11e1-9b95-0019bb30f31a.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/04/blackmons_plaza_shooting_east_st_louis.php

http://fox2now.com/2012/03/15/east-st-louis-police-deadly-shooting-leads-to-gunwar/

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_5fbb0540-4b18-5816-b044-d47ebdbbb1ec.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Man-...b-after-failed-robbery-attempt-130690478.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/11/lawana_hughes_adell_jones_murder.php

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You don't get it, do you? You don't see any kicking because people who know how to kick and punch for that matter, rarely find themselves in the type "reality" situations you are basing your entire debate on. Here's how bar fights go in my neck of the woods: These are just a few of the events that have occured within the last six months. And by the way, I boxed for nearly nine years, still have fast hands, but I just happen to have kicked longer. Due to that. my dojang has a reputation for having folks who can hit with their hands as well as they can kick.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_b5921318-5595-11e1-9b78-0019bb30f31a.html

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_a05c7e8e-481b-11e1-9b95-0019bb30f31a.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/04/blackmons_plaza_shooting_east_st_louis.php

http://fox2now.com/2012/03/15/east-st-louis-police-deadly-shooting-leads-to-gunwar/

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_5fbb0540-4b18-5816-b044-d47ebdbbb1ec.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Man-...b-after-failed-robbery-attempt-130690478.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...st-louis-nightclub/article_0fa23ba0-e6ea-11e0 acb8-001a4bcf6878.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/11/lawana_hughes_adell_jones_murder.php

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I honestly dont have the time to sit through those links. The original point made was that "if" you choose to do martial arts for self defence purposes (and I am happy to concede that many dont), then your sparring should best reflect the sorts of things you may encounter in 'real' situations. I also concede that no sparring ruleset can fully prepare for real altercations, BUT "from what Ive seen" of real fights the wtf ruleset does not even remotely look like a simulation of what someone may come up against for 'real'. Your theory that people who can punch and kick rarely find themselves in real fights just go to show how differently we think. For instance Ive met very few, if any, muay thai fighters who havent been in real fights and the same can be said for boxers. actually some of the biggest thugs Ive met have had MA experience, and they know how to punch and kick. As I said, We should just agree to disagree as we would be boring the hell out of others reading this thread as it just continues to go around in circles I have genuinely enjoyed this discussion though.

 

[Archtkd]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I honestly dont have the time to sit through those links. The original point made was that "if" you choose to do martial arts for self defence purposes (and I am happy to concede that many dont), then your sparring should best reflect the sorts of things you may encounter in 'real' situations. I also concede that no sparring ruleset can fully prepare for real altercations, BUT "from what Ive seen" of real fights the wtf ruleset does not even remotely look like a simulation of what someone may come up against for 'real'. Your theory that people who can punch and kick rarely find themselves in real fights just go to show how differently we think. For instance Ive met very few, if any, muay thai fighters who havent been in real fights and the same can be said for boxers. as I said, We should just agree to disagree as we would be boring the hell out of others reading this thread as it just continues to go around in circles

That's OK. I rarely get into debates about things I don't know or understand well and for which I cannot provide a sound basis of argument. I also do not make assumptions about people I've never met, especially if I don't clearly understand a point they are trying to make. I don't know about your country, but here (the American Midwest) finding good, well trained taekwondoin or any martial artist for that matter, getting into bar brawls and street fight is a rare thing. And that doesn't mean American taekwondoin and other martial artists who know how to kick can't take care of themselves on the streets like so many assume.

 

[Gorilla]

You guys are not boring anyone I rather enjoy the debate.

Most Martial Artist are able to walk away from fights.

Are fights really self defense. You certainly have to defend your self in a fight but the self defense part would be getting out of the fight.

Most self defense situations are when you are attacked with out knowing. I have not been in a fight for 25 years but I have had to defend might self a few times.

 

[Archtkd]

Most self defense situations are when you are attacked with out knowing. I have not been in a fight for 25 years but I have had to defend might self a few times.

I have to borrow that one.