How much is too much?

[shesulsa]

One particular quote by Ed Parker Sr. will be etched in the minds of martial artists and street fighters for a good long while to come; "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Is it? People who have protected themselves, their families, their businesses are sitting behind bars because they returned force in fear for their lives. Separated from the things they vowed to protect and did, they are serving as criminals.

If the proverbial excrement goes down how far do YOU go?

How much attention are you paying to escalation of force laws in your area? Do you go all out on someone who grabs you?

 

[monkey]

To me (to me )I take that saying not as to fight but if 12 people say-bash-racial discrimante ect. its better to let them & gothere ways then push or take a stand for your ethnic ect & end up having 6 pallbarers.Thats much like I was told at the Shaolin temple.If some one hurts you be passive-if some one trys to maime you hurt them-if some trys to kill you maime them>Maybe Parker was changing that or other quotes to suite his way as founder & each has to set Example or blase trails.Hence the founder name or the ar nothing more then exsplorers!

 

[Andrew Green]

umm... judged by 12... as in 12 members on a Jury...

 

[Robert Lee]

Sometimes it would be better to be judged then to have died not doing what you had to do. Right or wrong is seen in the eyes of the 12. And if the truth showed you had no choice they can for give you . Some over step selfdefence or over state there fears. in a court sometimes people get a wrong conviction. But in this case they lived. and now days have another chance to show proof they acted in real self defence. My state just passed another law of stand your ground at others home that you may visit. or in a public place that you have fear that if you did not act you wopuld be gravely harmed or killed. So the law does see that at times force is a must in todays life.

 

[patroldawg27]

That's a very popular saying amongst Police Officers and words to live by.

 

[Bigshadow]

I believe that one should only do what is necessary, no more, no less. In my mind this is above human law it is universal law and I believe this will put you safely within human law, lest they dramatically change them.

To expound on this even more, to do less than necessary, could result in being carried by six. Doing what is necessary should allow you to survive, doing more than necessary may land one in prison. In my opinion, doing more than necessary is vengence.

In my mind there are 3 levels of outcome, death (did not do what was necessary), life (did what was necessary), and vengence (did MORE than was necessary). It is the vengence part that will jeopardize your future freedom.

My silly notions worth.

 

[Rook]

So long as you take this is the spirit intended, the quote is fine. However, some people take this as a response that totally absolves them of debating the legal consequences of actions.

No conception of excessive force in the US has ever failed to come up with prosecutions for people who were only acting reasonably in self defense. Some people get away with alot under self-defense by contrast. In the US, it matter alot less what you did than what your local prosecutor thinks of the matter.

This quote, incidentally, was not origionally by Parker. I don't remember who it was by.

 

[Adept]

It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. The problem is that it is rarely a choice between the two. It's more likely 'be judged by twelve or lose your wallet'. When it really comes down to do or die, it's (almost) always better to do than to die. It's just that it (almost) never comes down to that.

 

[MJS]

One particular quote by Ed Parker Sr. will be etched in the minds of martial artists and street fighters for a good long while to come; "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

Is it? People who have protected themselves, their families, their businesses are sitting behind bars because they returned force in fear for their lives. Separated from the things they vowed to protect and did, they are serving as criminals.

If the proverbial excrement goes down how far do YOU go?

How much attention are you paying to escalation of force laws in your area? Do you go all out on someone who grabs you?

This is why, IMO, its good to have an understanding of the laws of your state. The courts nowadays, tend to look at the criminal as a 'victim' as well, eventhough this was the person that was trying to steal something from you or cause you physical harm. As Martial Artists, the courts will certainly look at us in a different way, expecting that we should be able to use good judgement and control how we use our skills.

 

[terryl965]

Shesulsa in my mind if I had to kill someone that is trying to hurt my wife or childern I could no questions ask, now with that being said, I believe one must be able to control every stituation and stay in complete control.
If I had to go to jail for what I do then I can live with that also, wanted like it but live with it.
Terry

 

[Drac]

I'd rather have an ugly trial than a beautiful funeral....

 

[tshadowchaser]

what he said



Maybe the laws in thi country n to be hang so that a peson defending his home,family, self has the right to do so wirth out fear of being prosicuted (sp).

Hell it's bad enough tha a person breaking into you house ca sue you if they get hust tripping on something in the house or your dog bites them while the are stealing you blind

 

[Kacey]

Here's another quote "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day". In my opinion, this complements the quote you began with - because if you don't fight, you may not live... and as others have said, if you don't live, the rest becomes irrelevant.

 

[HKphooey]

I think it is a great question. One should try to figure this out before they are actually put into a situation. You should learn about the damage you are capable of inflicting. I think in many cases, our own brains will throttle our actions. But I have also seen the quietest of people explode in rage when confronted.

I personally base my response on the attackers actions. If they hit, I block and then stricke back. If they continue to advance, so do I. I also think each situation will require (or stimulate) a different response.

Knowing the local laws are important, too!

 

[MA-Caver]

Read my first sig. Not always easy to do in the heat of the moment but possible to live by irregardless.

When I lived in Dallas, TX. some LEO friends of mine told me that it's better (on the subject of home invasion) to shoot the guy before he even enters the house and then drag him inside and shoot him again... this way in court... you can honestly answer "...yes, I shot him inside my house..." thus it was self defense.

It's a sticky to be sure, mainly because you got wusses in the court system that cowtow to the sharks (read:defense attorneys) who want nothing more to make a buck and build their win records that the individual went above and beyond what was necessary in the area of defense. How the hell would they know... were they watching?

In my younger (street-fighting) years I've seriously hurt people... I've always got the hell out of dodge when it was all said and done and the sirens were crying in the night. I will do the same today; incapacitate my attacker and get out of there.
If it's in my home however I'll stand my ground (afterwards) and trust the police will be supportive and not immediately drag me off to jail. It all depends, I guess on what they see when they first come through the door. First impressions.

In the area of self-defense I'll do whatever I have to... but I'll do it until I don't have to anymore, until I (and whomever I'm with) can get away. If breaking the guy's arm/leg/finger/whatever! is enough then so be it. If they have to be carried by six... then so be it.

 

[Kacey]

Read my first sig. Not always easy to do in the heat of the moment but possible to live by irregardless.

Indeed... and I've always loved those books; Stephen Donaldson came to my high school when I was a junior, and signed the 4 volumes that had been published by that time... but back to the topic at hand.

In the area of self-defense I'll do whatever I have to... but I'll do it until I don't have to anymore, until I (and whomever I'm with) can get away. If breaking the guy's arm/leg/finger/whatever! is enough then so be it. If they have to be carried by six... then so be it.

Self-defense stops when you are no longer required to defend yourself - there must be levels of response available to you, not just an all-out attempt to disable, maim, or kill. If you continue past the point where you need to defend yourself, or defend yourself with a disproportionately strong response, you have left the legal definition of self-defense and entered assault, no matter the action on the part of the other person that triggered your action. The strength of one's response needs to be proportionate to the situation - this is also an aspect of control. If you only train at one level of contact (light or heavy) then you will experience difficulty adjusting appropriately to the situation. Too little force; you lose - too much force, you lose, albeit in a different way. There must be balance between levels of force, and that balance requires control which allows one to adjust force and target as necessary.