How Military Culture Turned America Into the land of SWAT

[Makalakumu]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/w...al-care-so-cops-kill-him-in-his-nursing-home/

95 year WWII veteran refuses medical care, gets rowdy at the nursing home, and cops show up in body armor, with riot shields, tazers and beanbag guns. Veteran gets thoroughly electrocuted and shot in the stomach with a beanbag round. He dies. There is a problem with the culture of police if something like this can occur.

 

[ballen0351]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/w...al-care-so-cops-kill-him-in-his-nursing-home/

95 year WWII veteran refuses medical care, gets rowdy at the nursing home, and cops show up in body armor, with riot shields, tazers and beanbag guns. Veteran gets thoroughly electrocuted and shot in the stomach with a beanbag round. He dies. There is a problem with the culture of police if something like this can occur.

You left out the part about him armed with a butcher knife. Also all cops wear "body armor" and what were they supposed to do? Walk up to the guy and use some "karate" and take the knife away.

 

[ballen0351]

I think you may be using this term in a more limited, traditional manner than the general public is. You can't keep words from acquiring broader meanings. Heck, I still bristle when I see a KARATE sign at a TKD school, but what can you do?

Which is fine but this entire thread is about figuring out the problems and the facts. And the fact is that wasn't a SWAT it was barely law enforcement. No offense to any DNR cops but we call them trout troopers and deer detectives around here and they have very limited authority to do police work. I suspect its true there aw well which is why they took deputies with them in case something serious happened.
Here its DNRs policy that if they try to arrest someone and that person refuses or resists they are to back away and call local law enforcement.

 

[granfire]

You left out the part about him armed with a butcher knife. Also all cops wear "body armor" and what were they supposed to do? Walk up to the guy and use some "karate" and take the knife away.

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[Tgace]

I think you may be using this term in a more limited, traditional manner than the general public is. You can't keep words from acquiring broader meanings. Heck, I still bristle when I see a KARATE sign at a TKD school, but what can you do?

I'm using it accurately. A SWAT Team is a specially trained unit within a police department. Either a PD uses its SWAT team or it doesn't. A group of detectives wearing exterior body armor is not SWAT...any more than a dude wearing a Gi as a Halloween costume is a Martial Artist.

 

[Makalakumu]

You left out the part about him armed with a butcher knife. Also all cops wear "body armor" and what were they supposed to do? Walk up to the guy and use some "karate" and take the knife away.

Officers reported that a knife was pulled, but no knife was found at the scene.

 

[ballen0351]

but no knife was found at the scene.

According to the guys family not the police

 

[billc]

Frankly I don't care what you feel if I approach your car with my hand on my gun.

I personally would think that it should just be common training technique for officers to approach cars ready to fight. I saw the video of the State Trooper who pulled over a car and was mobbed by the 4 or 5 guys in the car, dragged off camera onto the side of the road and murdered.

My brother, a cop, stopped a car once for speeding. He got up to the car and noticed that all three or four guys in the car had duct tape over their finger tips...called for back up...sure enough, a hardware store had been robbed and he caught the guys. As a cop, you don't know who is in that car you are approaching so yeah...have your hand on your gun...I won't be offended...

 

[arnisador]

I'm using it accurately. A SWAT Team is a specially trained unit within a police department. Either a PD uses its SWAT team or it doesn't. A group of detectives wearing exterior body armor is not SWAT...any more than a dude wearing a Gi as a Halloween costume is a Martial Artist.

Language moves on, dude.

 

[Makalakumu]

According to the guys family not the police

Assuming there was a knife, could you take it away from a 95 year old man without tazoring and blasting him with beanbag rounds?

 

[Tgace]

Language moves on, dude.

It's not language..it's definition. A SWAT Team is a special unit. SEALS are a special unit. Just because someone says "they came in like SEALS" doesn't make us SEALS. A SWAT team is a specific, defined, thing.

 

[Tgace]

Assuming there was a knife, could you take it away from a 95 year old man without tazoring and blasting him with beanbag rounds?

I once had to help 4 officers restrain a man in his late 80's...dementia..WWII vet who probably thought he was fighting the Japanese again. You ever try that? Assuming you could simply take a knife away from any grown adult is a recipe for getting yourself killed.

 

[ballen0351]

Assuming there was a knife, could you take it away from a 95 year old man without tazoring and blasting him with beanbag rounds?

Could I? maybe I could Would I? nope Why should I? When does someone with a knife become not dangerous? 85? 75? 65? 55? 45? If he was a febal old man why did staff and his family even call the police?
Ive had my fill of old vets I was on the street 7 months when a WW2 vet shot thru the door at me thinking I was a Nazi he was having flash backs to the war. missed my head by about 8 inches.

 

[Tgace]

I know this stuff comes with the job, but stories like this can be found ALL over the place:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/06/dr_christopher_duntsch_plano_s.php

All things considered, Mary Efurd is one of the lucky ones. She walked into Dr. Christopher Duntsch's Texas Neurosurgery Institute in Plano on July 25, 2012 and emerged with her life. The same can't be said at least two of his former patients, who died after Dunstch botched their surgeries, according to the Texas Medical Board.

Doctors kill more people every day than cops do, wheres the profession wide condemnation of them?

View attachment $Infographic-Firearms-vs-Doctors-Drugs.jpg

Don't be afraid of getting killed by a cop...be afraid of that guy checking your prostate.

 

[punisher73]

Officers reported that a knife was pulled, but no knife was found at the scene.

Once again, the poor understanding of "use of force" and "deadly force" as police are actually authorized to use. If a suspect has a knife and you believe that they have the intent to use it on you or someone else, it is a deadly force assault. Guess what? Bean bag rounds and TASERS are NOT what is supposed to be used in a deadly force assault, your firearm is. The fact that the police were attempting to use LESSER levels of force to try and get the suspect under control without striking him or shooting him is lost on the unfortunate part that he died as a result of their use of force.

It's a no win situation. If they would have gone in and used striking techniques, then everyone would be on here talking about how the police should have just used a TASER instead. If they would have used a TASER, people would have been on here suggesting they did something else.

Police use (for many agencies) what's called a "+1" response of force. This means that the police will use one level higher of force than the suspect. Why? Because we are not paid to get into an equal contest with a suspect. We are paid to get the suspect under control as quickly as possible to keep ourselves safe and the suspect safe in the long run. So, if a suspect attempts to punch/kick and officer. That officer is allowed by law to strike the suspect using an impact weapon to keep a tactical advantage. This is in contrast to civilian self-defense that requires an equal response of force.

So, do police use a "shock and awe" approach sometimes? Yep, because we want to get in their as fast as possible and have the suspects as confused as possible so it doesn't escalate into something more. We try to take away the time factor that they can mount a violent response to the situation.

 

[arnisador]

It's not language..it's definition. A SWAT Team is a special unit. SEALS are a special unit. Just because someone says "they came in like SEALS" doesn't make us SEALS. A SWAT team is a specific, defined, thing.

But paramilitary tactics and gear used by police is something beyond just specific teams and people describe it as SWAT-like because it used to be limited to certain teams in certain situations.

 

[arnisador]

Doctors kill more people every day than cops do, wheres the profession wide condemnation of them?

Beyond all the more obvious reasons why this is a senseless attempt at distraction, you go to see a physician--teams of physicians don't burst through your door with firearms in their hands.

 

[billc]

you go to see a physician--teams of physicians don't burst through your door with firearms in their hands.

The physician mistakes that kill more people are made in a situation that they control, they make all the decisions, there is usually no time pressure or threat of physical harm to the physician as he is making his decisions for the patient and it is done in a nice air conditioned office with magazines in their lobby, and muzac playing...and they kill more people than cops...

 

[Makalakumu]

Once again, the poor understanding of "use of force" and "deadly force" as police are actually authorized to use. If a suspect has a knife and you believe that they have the intent to use it on you or someone else, it is a deadly force assault. Guess what? Bean bag rounds and TASERS are NOT what is supposed to be used in a deadly force assault, your firearm is. The fact that the police were attempting to use LESSER levels of force to try and get the suspect under control without striking him or shooting him is lost on the unfortunate part that he died as a result of their use of force.

It's a no win situation. If they would have gone in and used striking techniques, then everyone would be on here talking about how the police should have just used a TASER instead. If they would have used a TASER, people would have been on here suggesting they did something else.

Police use (for many agencies) what's called a "+1" response of force. This means that the police will use one level higher of force than the suspect. Why? Because we are not paid to get into an equal contest with a suspect. We are paid to get the suspect under control as quickly as possible to keep ourselves safe and the suspect safe in the long run. So, if a suspect attempts to punch/kick and officer. That officer is allowed by law to strike the suspect using an impact weapon to keep a tactical advantage. This is in contrast to civilian self-defense that requires an equal response of force.

So, do police use a "shock and awe" approach sometimes? Yep, because we want to get in their as fast as possible and have the suspects as confused as possible so it doesn't escalate into something more. We try to take away the time factor that they can mount a violent response to the situation.

I understand the point you are making. I'm sure that procedure would have you do what you are describing and that the police were using lesser methods. However, we are talking about a 95 year old man. Sometimes the "procedure" might simply be overkill. This strikes me as the same overwhelming force idea that comes from military doctrines.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/law-enforcement/officer-safety/use-of-force/statistics.htm

The public constantly scrutinizes police officers. Episodes where police engage in excessive use of force have been well publicized in the media. Television shows regularly portray excessive use of force. Widespread media attention tothese events unfortunately conveys the impression that rates of use of force, or excessive use of force, are much higher than what actually occurs.

All that's really changed is the Internet.....

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