No that's perspective, not exclusivity.
No that's perspective, not exclusivity.
And there's only two of them.
shihansmurf
Black Belt
I don't have set time standard for promoting my students to black but I notice the average has been 4 to 5 years. I promote based on when the student is ready to begin training in new material, or in the case of a black belt promotion, is ready for more self-directed study.
Mark
Mark
I agree, the poll needs to have more of a selection.
Personally, I believe that if your a minor, than 18 at the earliest or 5-10 years which ever is longest at minimum. Otherwise I say we go back to the old days of years, and years, and years of training before a Black Belt could be awarded.
In our organization, you must have 5 years minimum of training before even being 'considered' for a equivalent rank. Then it's an additional 4-5 years of just training for that position, and then it continues on up 4-5 years in between.
Personally, I believe that if your a minor, than 18 at the earliest or 5-10 years which ever is longest at minimum. Otherwise I say we go back to the old days of years, and years, and years of training before a Black Belt could be awarded.
In our organization, you must have 5 years minimum of training before even being 'considered' for a equivalent rank. Then it's an additional 4-5 years of just training for that position, and then it continues on up 4-5 years in between.
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Perhaps the correct answer is; as long as it takes a practitioner to learn the basics of the system to a level of proficiency. This will differ from student to student and arbitrarily set standards are more for business practice than actual martial learning. Some people are sponges and learn quickly. Some aren't. And some will never achieve a BB level (in a serious art).
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
To me the whole point is mute because of the history of ranks in the first place. What does a rank represent to you? We can say that a blackbelt means someone is proficient in the basics of an art but my proficiency may not be as "proficient" as another. A 140lb woman who is a blackbelt standing toe-to-toe against a "brown belt" of the same system who is a 6'4'' 240lb male may just look like a complete novice or worse should they get into it.
The argument is either time requirements and proficiency based on ability to perform the moves or it is knowledge of the moves and ability to demonstrate them. Sometimes its both but in all three cases the system seems quite flawed. So what are we after with ranks anyway?
I believe there should be 3 categories of ranking;
1. Knowledge
2. Ability
3. Proficiency (ability to use the material as intended at a high level)
Some teachers I have had that were great could ONLY teach (barely could perform the moves dynamically as intended but were the BEST teachers of the art in relaying the material). Other teachers were incredible at demonstrating the moves but had NO clue why they worked, how they came about and had the verbal skills of a rock! Even more I had teachers that beat the ever-living crap out of me and I could do nothing to stop them, however, their form was bad and they NEVER taught me anymore than my body was their punching bag. Once, maybe twice, I actually had an instructor which encompassed all 3 aspects (masters IMO).
The funny thing is that all of those teachers were high ranking BBs in their respective arts. Some people say contact hours and certification hours are the way to go, some say fighting competitions are the way, others say something else. I say that it really only matters to the student and their goals. If you want to fight study under someone who turns out great fighters (not necessarily a great fighter who turns people into meatloaf) and such as it applies to the other categories.
Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class. So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more. Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.
The argument is either time requirements and proficiency based on ability to perform the moves or it is knowledge of the moves and ability to demonstrate them. Sometimes its both but in all three cases the system seems quite flawed. So what are we after with ranks anyway?
I believe there should be 3 categories of ranking;
1. Knowledge
2. Ability
3. Proficiency (ability to use the material as intended at a high level)
Some teachers I have had that were great could ONLY teach (barely could perform the moves dynamically as intended but were the BEST teachers of the art in relaying the material). Other teachers were incredible at demonstrating the moves but had NO clue why they worked, how they came about and had the verbal skills of a rock! Even more I had teachers that beat the ever-living crap out of me and I could do nothing to stop them, however, their form was bad and they NEVER taught me anymore than my body was their punching bag. Once, maybe twice, I actually had an instructor which encompassed all 3 aspects (masters IMO).
The funny thing is that all of those teachers were high ranking BBs in their respective arts. Some people say contact hours and certification hours are the way to go, some say fighting competitions are the way, others say something else. I say that it really only matters to the student and their goals. If you want to fight study under someone who turns out great fighters (not necessarily a great fighter who turns people into meatloaf) and such as it applies to the other categories.
Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class. So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more. Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.
We base ours on age skill and maturity could be 2 years maybe never maybe in six years all of the above I have a 12 year old getting close to poom after six years but he will be held back unless he can prove he is willing to be outstanding in behavior at home and school not just average.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Woah, how could this one have slipped by?
Uh, what? Care to back that up with something Jason?
frank raud
Master of Arts
Rank was intended originally as a tool for the person teaching the class. So at a quick glance they could group people together to better run the school and teach their classes - nothing more. Kano gave out ranks all the time too like 13th dan and such.[/QUOTE]
I know Chris just pointed this out, but could you maybe give an example(just one) of a 13th dan rank given by Kano?
I know Chris just pointed this out, but could you maybe give an example(just one) of a 13th dan rank given by Kano?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Or, say... anyone getting 13th Dan at any point from anyone (legitimately)? Kano himself was promoted to 12th posthumously.... and that's about it.
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
Yeah... 13th Dan does not exist in Judo... What color belt would that even be? A 12inch wide white belt maybe???
I was. My actions in the Civil War apparently warranted it.
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kitkatninja
Blue Belt
I voted "4yrs to 4yrs 6mnths" however, it's not fixed. I voted for the time it took me to gain my first black belt in Shotokan karate (then another 2 years to gain my 2nd Dan in Freestyle Karate) - this was based on me training 5 times a week, as well as practicing at home. There were a handful that earned their black belts earlier (as they previouly had black/brown belts in similar arts) and there were students that have taken 5 to 10+ years.
Unless black belt or first dan is some kind of end goal and you intend to move on to another activity or pursue an unrelated goal, then how long it takes you to get there is rather unimportant. I took my first taekwondo class in something like 1975. Would it matter at this point if I had been promoted to first pum in 1976 or in 1980? Or if, in my case, I didn't test for it until late in the last decade? If you practice the art as part of your life, then the time to black belt is unimportant; the art will always be there.
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
Very well said!
about 5 years ago I flew in to our regional NW DoJang to bring two of my colored belts to a TKD and open tournament while there a person wanting to test for 6th Dan drove in some distance to test with his students. I would say the younger ones on average were 14-17. as a courtesy I was asked to sit in on the testing board with our GM and another Senior master. I allowed my green belts to attend and watch and we were somewhat shocked my green belts were far supperior to those testing for bb and at some point I kept looking over at my senior like do you see this and I thought he would slap me out of my chair to imply do you think I am blind he was as horrified as I. Yet all passed and most had been training 6-7 years but in TKD an avg class one hour 2-3 a week just does not get it. The PoomSe and self defense was at best pitiful. there is just at times to much presure to pay the bills in tkd to constantly keep testing and passing to get to the next gup or Dan test fees? That does not mean all are bad and there are those that work very hard and unfortunately there are masters who just do not know any better. 1st Dan should mean you know and can teach all the basics well.
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
I saw some similar things back in my Kenpo days and remember feeling proud and at the same time disgusted...
Balrog
Master of Arts
Short hand answer - as long as it takes. The minimum that someone with no prior experience can make 1st Degree in our school is 32 months, and that's if they ace every testing. Most folks take 36+ months to make it.
FabianosKarate
White Belt
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Our school is a Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu school. Our MINIMUM requirements for a Black Belt is 3 years. This would be coming 4-5 times per week and testing on the first testing date you could. This would be provided that Sensei Fabiano feels you are ready and you pass. All of our black belts have been tested by Sensei Fabiano and we all have to go under the same scrutiny. All of us must perform all of our Katas, Wazas, and Weapons Katas from the beginning up to the current rank. We also must spar with the Adult class with no breaks, no drinks or anything for 1 full hour. We then must pass the "black belt gauntlet" which is a 60-second sparring round with each black belt in the school who shows up that night (generally 10-15 of them).
brownie710
Yellow Belt
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I train in Zen-Do Kai (American not BJC) and 6-8 years is fairly standard from what I have seen. Although some have earned their black belt in 4 years they are recognized as very gifted martial artists. I've only been training for about a year but it seems the self defense portions are what take the most time to develop for testing. As we are strongly rooted in street style self defense a large part of testing is multiple attacks (empty hand, knife,club, gun) as well as two man self defense before sparring one and two man matches. It seems from the testing I have seen that the forms, kata, single person sparring and three step drills are mastered more quickly than the free form self defense, hence the longer time between belts until Shodan.
