How is your Hapkido ground game?

[goingd]

Today I was fooling around with a class mate (theatre college class, not abnormal), and we started grappling a bit. He's had training in Jeet Kun Do, and I have to say, once we were on the ground, he had the advantage. On my feet I was doing fine, but was off my feet it felt like I had notably less options.

So, your Hapkido ground game?

 

[TigerLove]

We still didn't learn much of Hapkido ground game. Since we in club grappling pretty much, i had to "develop" my own ground tehnique.

It's made of biting, tweaking on some vital and sensitive points, and wringing on throat or eye gauging.

Dirty and not Hapkido, but works :ultracool

 

[dortiz]

While I admit I have some basic BJJ training most of my ground games strength still comes from applying my Hapkido.
I hold my own with the BJJ guys I train with once in a while and do way more than that with folks in class when we play.
I look for the same techniques from whatever position and it works quite well. I do think you need to practice it juts like standing in order to think these techniques through and be comfortable should you end up there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It works well for what I train to do: keep off of the ground and to get up off of the ground. I have a small group of tools that I train in and which work well. Nothing as elaborate as what you'll see in BJJ, but then BJJ is a pure grappling and ground-fighting art.

Kind of like my sword work: in hapkido, we do some. But a student who's only sword work is in hapkido will not have anything close to the level of sword training that I have from kumdo, which is nothing but sword work and involves both sword skills and kendo.

Daniel

 

[milewskiw]

I help our instructor by working with interested students in Jujitsu, not BJJ, but traditional. It fits better with Hapkido as its not sports oriented like BJJ but pure combat oriented.

 

[Haakon]

So, your Hapkido ground game?

I don't have a lot of Hapkido ground game, we don't train that way much - most of my ground work comes from wrestling and trying to apply arm/wrist locks. My instructor, who is just a hair over 1/2 my size, has no trouble getting lose and applying an arm bar to me anytime he wants - guess that's why he's the instructor in my opinion MY ground work is fairly poor and has A LOT of room for improvement.

 

[Disco]

We still didn't learn much of Hapkido ground game. Since we in club grappling pretty much, i had to "develop" my own ground tehnique.

It's made of biting, tweaking on some vital and sensitive points, and wringing on throat or eye gauging.

Dirty and not Hapkido, but works :ultracool

Ah!, but that is Hapkido is a sense, at least the element of getting up ASAP and within that context, anything goes. Since the interjection of BJJ, most folks equate ground fighting with them and it's exactly that, fighting on the ground and that's their specialty. But what folks seem to want to overlook is the fact that techniques have been taught (in general) to disengage from the grounded position and do it quickly. The ground is not the ideal place to be in real combat and the more time spent there, the more haphazard the situation becomes.

 

[Traditionalist]

Ah!, but that is Hapkido is a sense, at least the element of getting up ASAP and within that context, anything goes. Since the interjection of BJJ, most folks equate ground fighting with them and it's exactly that, fighting on the ground and that's their specialty. But what folks seem to want to overlook is the fact that techniques have been taught (in general) to disengage from the grounded position and do it quickly. The ground is not the ideal place to be in real combat and the more time spent there, the more haphazard the situation becomes.

I agree. I was taught that any technique (wrist locks, arm bars, etc) that you do standing up you can do on the ground. I have no problems manipulating small joints (fingers, toes) if I'm on the ground with someone. We're fighting and there are no rules in a real fight. My first instinct is to always get to my feet. Why be on the ground when I can fight you standing up and keep my surrounding in sight (in case my opponent has a friend that happens on the fight and he decided to help his friend out).

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Greetings,
This is a very good and honest question. And some interesting answers so far. After years and years of serious study in Korean soft arts of Hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kuk Sool, and others, I was under the false impression that we had a well rounded system that included a solid "ground game". In my school, we would pride ourselves in that we had a variety of sparring scenarios that included lots of contact, no one calling for break, all tools on the table and so on. Yet when honestly evaluating our skill sets (especially our ground game), I had to say, "I believe we can still do better". I owed that to myself and to my students.

In as much as the main components for a solid ground game are present in these arts such as standing grappling, ie: joint locks, pressure points, clinch and take downs/throws, as well as ground grappling, ie: pins, chokes, submissions and incapacitations, I found key elements missing once the rubber hit the road. No fun, and the street (or battlefield) in not the place to discover that one is lacking an area of training, such as ground fighting, serious knife training, and so on.

It is true that there are techniques for throwing and locking up the opponent once they hit the ground, thereby forcing them to tap or cause serious damage. Most of these "ground" techniques were based on "pain compliance" and control over the situation. The same went for escapes from things such as chokes, pins and locks, etc. But no real "x-factor" or "what IF" training included, such as, if you slip and loose your balance during a throw or lock up (how many times has that happened...), if unable to apply a lock up due to sweat, or real difficult resistance, much less taking under consideration that the opponent may be very skilled and know the counter moves. God forbid a sudden "un-expected" weapon or extra opponent(s) become a factor. These are real, honest and important questions I needed to find answers, for myself and my students.

The answers were actually simple, and hard at the same time. Simple because all we needed to do is re-evaluate our existing techniques and training methods and tweak and augment them as needed. This meant, we needed a systemic approach (as their original applications), and we also needed to develop higher level training methods to allow us to tap into this system, and apply the necessary tools at the right time. Also simple is, the many times discouraged, looking into other arts that may provide these tools and training methods. The techniques are nothing new. An x-choke is an x-choke, a wrist lock is a wrist lock, and so on, regardless of style or country of origin. On the street it certainly would not matter. The hard part is actually doing this, and testing it out with our own students and those from other schools. Being honest with oneself and seeking out more "outside" knowledge, can be the hardest part. It is very different working with your own people and then mixing it up with "strangers". The same could be said with any fighting/sparring.

For us personally, this meant working with and rolling with people who worked in that area, such as Jiujitusu guys (traditional Japanese and BJJ), Judo and wrestling people, JKD, MMA and anyone else with an open mind and a positive attitude. Going against a strong, skilled and most importantly, an uncooperative opponent is very enlightening. The results were fantastic. We could absolutely apply the techniques from our existing arsenal and incorporate other techniques and training methods very easily. Very cool indeed. I was taught our techniques in a three level approach: 1-Escape, 2-Hurt and 3-Destroy. All depending on the severity of the situation. We apply this concept to our grappling as well. There is big difference in submission grappling and combative grappling. But we need it all. That just means more work. Cool.

Just try to take down a good judo man, or pin a good wrestler, or choke out a good bjj guy, it's not that easy. It has been noted that we don't really want to roll around or end up on the ground in a fight. I tend to agree. Too many things can go wrong, real fast. Even in the UFC, as much as it is very close to full on combat, it is not. There is a referee to stop and control the action, the are fixed perimeters (ie the cage), there are mats, there are no weapons or help from your buddies if you are loosing or in a compromised position, there are illegal techniques and so on. This is not a slight on MMA, I actually like the UFC and similar events, and even have many MMA fighters in our ranks. But it is a simple fact of life.

For me personally, a huge "light bulb" moment was realizing the importance of ground positions, and stabilizing what we call "superior positions". These not only afforded us the ability to better apply techniques, rest and re-group, but the positions themselves often ended the match. The next part of this enlightenment, was the all important areas avoiding and escaping these positions and associated finishing techniques. This was HUGE. This was also very stimulating, challenging and super rewarding. The result was our own Korean version of a ground game. Just as we have areas for kicking (jok sul), join locks (kwan jyel gi sul), weapons (moo gi sul), and so on, we now have a strong and practical area for grappling (hapki-yu sul).

Alright, I think I may have gone on too long. If you would like to see some of our grappling, some of my students have posted lots of clips on youtube such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPxVRhzs_o&feature=channel

Alright, very good discussion.
With much respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

 

[zDom]

If you would like to see some of our grappling, some of my students have posted lots of clips on youtube such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPxVRhzs_o&feature=channel

Some good stuff in that clip!

 

[Wey]

Greetings,
This is a very good and honest question. And some interesting answers so far. After years and years of serious study in Korean soft arts of Hapkido, Hwarangdo, Kuk Sool, and others, I was under the false impression that we had a well rounded system that included a solid "ground game". In my school, we would pride ourselves in that we had a variety of sparring scenarios that included lots of contact, no one calling for break, all tools on the table and so on. Yet when honestly evaluating our skill sets (especially our ground game), I had to say, "I believe we can still do better". I owed that to myself and to my students.

In as much as the main components for a solid ground game are present in these arts such as standing grappling, ie: joint locks, pressure points, clinch and take downs/throws, as well as ground grappling, ie: pins, chokes, submissions and incapacitations, I found key elements missing once the rubber hit the road. No fun, and the street (or battlefield) in not the place to discover that one is lacking an area of training, such as ground fighting, serious knife training, and so on.

It is true that there are techniques for throwing and locking up the opponent once they hit the ground, thereby forcing them to tap or cause serious damage. Most of these "ground" techniques were based on "pain compliance" and control over the situation. The same went for escapes from things such as chokes, pins and locks, etc. But no real "x-factor" or "what IF" training included, such as, if you slip and loose your balance during a throw or lock up (how many times has that happened...), if unable to apply a lock up due to sweat, or real difficult resistance, much less taking under consideration that the opponent may be very skilled and know the counter moves. God forbid a sudden "un-expected" weapon or extra opponent(s) become a factor. These are real, honest and important questions I needed to find answers, for myself and my students.

The answers were actually simple, and hard at the same time. Simple because all we needed to do is re-evaluate our existing techniques and training methods and tweak and augment them as needed. This meant, we needed a systemic approach (as their original applications), and we also needed to develop higher level training methods to allow us to tap into this system, and apply the necessary tools at the right time. Also simple is, the many times discouraged, looking into other arts that may provide these tools and training methods. The techniques are nothing new. An x-choke is an x-choke, a wrist lock is a wrist lock, and so on, regardless of style or country of origin. On the street it certainly would not matter. The hard part is actually doing this, and testing it out with our own students and those from other schools. Being honest with oneself and seeking out more "outside" knowledge, can be the hardest part. It is very different working with your own people and then mixing it up with "strangers". The same could be said with any fighting/sparring.

For us personally, this meant working with and rolling with people who worked in that area, such as Jiujitusu guys (traditional Japanese and BJJ), Judo and wrestling people, JKD, MMA and anyone else with an open mind and a positive attitude. Going against a strong, skilled and most importantly, an uncooperative opponent is very enlightening. The results were fantastic. We could absolutely apply the techniques from our existing arsenal and incorporate other techniques and training methods very easily. Very cool indeed. I was taught our techniques in a three level approach: 1-Escape, 2-Hurt and 3-Destroy. All depending on the severity of the situation. We apply this concept to our grappling as well. There is big difference in submission grappling and combative grappling. But we need it all. That just means more work. Cool.

Just try to take down a good judo man, or pin a good wrestler, or choke out a good bjj guy, it's not that easy. It has been noted that we don't really want to roll around or end up on the ground in a fight. I tend to agree. Too many things can go wrong, real fast. Even in the UFC, as much as it is very close to full on combat, it is not. There is a referee to stop and control the action, the are fixed perimeters (ie the cage), there are mats, there are no weapons or help from your buddies if you are loosing or in a compromised position, there are illegal techniques and so on. This is not a slight on MMA, I actually like the UFC and similar events, and even have many MMA fighters in our ranks. But it is a simple fact of life.

For me personally, a huge "light bulb" moment was realizing the importance of ground positions, and stabilizing what we call "superior positions". These not only afforded us the ability to better apply techniques, rest and re-group, but the positions themselves often ended the match. The next part of this enlightenment, was the all important areas avoiding and escaping these positions and associated finishing techniques. This was HUGE. This was also very stimulating, challenging and super rewarding. The result was our own Korean version of a ground game. Just as we have areas for kicking (jok sul), join locks (kwan jyel gi sul), weapons (moo gi sul), and so on, we now have a strong and practical area for grappling (hapki-yu sul).

Alright, I think I may have gone on too long. If you would like to see some of our grappling, some of my students have posted lots of clips on youtube such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAPxVRhzs_o&feature=channel

Alright, very good discussion.
With much respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

Kuk Sa Nim,
Thank you for this post! Good insight followed by a good video. Camsamnida!

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Something you might want to check out if it's ever in your area:
Combat Hapkido Ground Survival.
www.dsihq.com
That's the business site. There's a seminar list on there. If one of Master Rivas' Ground Survival seminars is ever close enough for you to check out... do it. You won't regret it.

I have a couple Gracie style bjj guys I can roll around with and they have helped my ground work tremendously. But... I'm not training for the sport. I'm learning what I can from it to stay out of those positions as much as possible. All I want out of it is the ability to utterly defeat mma fans (or bad tempered mma fighters) that might try to start something with me. The mma bit is actually pretty big around here... they hold amateur fights and there are plenty of fans to go around... lots of tapout shirts to point and laugh at. Who goes to tap in a fight? It's a fight. Take the fight out of him so you don't have to worry about him when his two buddies come at you.

I went to one of Master Rivas' seminars a few weeks back and learned a lot of sick nasty stuff... like a wicked trick on the tired old armbar position... but breaking it and rolling right out back up into a standing position. Sick nasty hitman kind of stuff... I love it.

"...however, unlike many other styles we were not interested in sport..."
-GM Pellegrini

That's why I love these guys.

You can get his video in the DSI store. It's a little pricey, but well worth it... and they donate to the wounded warrior project.

 

[Drac]

Something you might want to check out if it's ever in your area:
Combat Hapkido Ground Survival.
www.dsihq.com

I went to one of Master Rivas' seminars a few weeks back and learned a lot of sick nasty stuff... like a wicked trick on the tired old armbar position... but breaking it and rolling right out back up into a standing position. Sick nasty hitman kind of stuff... I love it.

Yeah, Master Rivas does some amazing ground stuff..

 

[Disco]

Some questions and/or rather opposing viewpoints.

#1) While watching the video of Rivas, if those techniques are so good, why don't or haven't we seen them done in the UFC or other venues.

#2) The "Ground Game" as folks like to label it is and lets be totally honest here, a young mans/persons agenda.
Open question to anyone who has gone to one of these seminars, have you ever seen MR. P on the floor doing these techniques/tactics? Now I've seen him go to the ground from a standing arm bar position, but have never seen him doing these........... Just asking, nothing more.........

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

#1 Last I heard... UFC has rules. Self defense... well... not so much. A lot of it would not be allowed in a "sporting" event. Small joint manipulation... sound familiar? This is the Hapkido section, right? How many mma guys claim they won their matches because of their Hapkido training? Most of it can't be used there simply because of the rules. No small joint manipulation... at least that's how I understand it... but I have no interest in mma.

#2 Try to tackle GM P and see what happens. Let me know how that turns out. But seriously... I've seen him take people down using different methods in seminar... but the guy he's with is always in a degree of pain. Never seen him do a pull down into guard or tackle into full mount... I don't think he would want to go to the ground to wrestle, but I'm sure he knows what to do once he's down. (Seeing as was stated before, most of Hapkido does, in fact, work on the ground). Honestly, I agree that this ground stuff is a young buck's game. I don't think many over 50 would want to roll around on the ground if they had a choice. That's why he had Rivas go and put together this Ground Survival thing. As far as I know Rivas is the man in charge of the Ground Survival section. I wish I were in Grandmaster Pellegrini's or Master Rivas' school... I could tell you more.

 

[Disco]

#1 Last I heard... UFC has rules.

True, but the techniques I viewed on the offered video link didn't go against any rules.

Try to tackle GM P and see what happens.................

That never was a question asked, but you did answer what was asked further on with your reply........"Never seen him do a pull down into guard or tackle into full mount... I don't think he would want to go to the ground to wrestle"

"but I'm sure he knows what to do once he's down."

Don't doubt that and that aspect of the discussion has been previously mentioned in regards to Hapkido in general. We can surmise that he would use techniques that have been taught way before BJJ became in vogue. So now using this premise, why the need to install a "ground game" separate division within the Hapkido based curriculum in place?

I agree that this ground stuff is a young buck's game.......

We agree on this, but then one has to ask again, why infuse a separate division/section, just for specialty sake, when in truth, from a self defense aspect it's not really needed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree that this ground stuff is a young buck's game.......

We agree on this, but then one has to ask again, why infuse a separate division/section, just for specialty sake, when in truth, from a self defense aspect it's not really needed.

Probably the same reason that high and flashy kicks are a part of some hapkido systems and a part of taekwondo: Some people really like them.

High kicking and flashy kicking is a young person's game as well, and as a general rule, has comparatively little practical value. But it is very popular and in the right circumstance, can be a useful tool. Same for a ground game.

Also, with regards to both groundwork and high kicking, some people just have a knack for it and can use it more effectively than others.

In spite of having (according to my Korean masters) the ideal body type for taekwondo (6'4, long legs, long arms, short torso, and around 202 pounds), my high kicks are really not all that impressive, and tornado kicks and such are not on the menu. For whatever reason, high kicking just has never been my strongest suit,in spite of years of training. I can deliver a fairly effective roundhouse and a nice front kick at about my own head level, and a reasonably good axe kick. But Steven Lopez I am not.

On the other hand, I do quite well with the hoshinsul and I'm fairly difficult to take to the ground. I do not consider myself much of a ground fighter; our system is fairly light in that area and ground work is not my strong suit either, though to be fair, I have not trained in it to anything like the degree that I have kicks.

Of course, I can beat people with a stick fantastically.

Also, I see groundwork as a nice extension of hoshinsul. Some people just like to pretzel their opponent, and groundwork allows another arena to apply hapkido techniques.

Daniel

 

[Disco]

Probably the same reason that high and flashy kicks are a part of some hapkido systems and a part of taekwondo: Some people really like them.

Very true, but I have a different rational as to why it was instituted, but that's another thread unto itself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Probably the same reason that high and flashy kicks are a part of some hapkido systems and a part of taekwondo: Some people really like them.

Very true, but I have a different rational as to why it was instituted, but that's another thread unto itself.

Well, I would say that right now, instituting a ground game into anything where it was not present previously is done for one of three reasons:

1. Legitimate enrichment of the art based upon changing or shifting preferences in unarmed fighting.

2. To fill a perceived hole in the system; the perception may be in the minds of those outside of the system, but those within may feel that unless a ground game is addressed, the reputation of the art will suffer. The hole may be perceived from within the art as well.

3. To financially capitalize on the current popularity of MMA.

Daniel

 

[Allen a.k.a. Destroyer]

Well put, Mr. Sullivan. After having met both of them I would have to say your first and second reasons are right on the mark. The mma scene is incredibly popular and probably isn't going to disappear anytime soon... so all the better that we practice things they don't do in the ring/octagon/cage/whatever, right?

why the need to install a "ground game" separate division within the Hapkido based curriculum in place?

...why infuse a separate division/section, just for specialty sake, when in truth, from a self defense aspect it's not really needed.

In a self defense aspect... isn't it better to cover all possibilities and hope you never have to use the techniques? I'm almost certain there are guys out there that watch mma on tv and are waiting to try it on someone. I don't want to be that someone, nor do I want to just allow it to happen.

Without any previous training in any kind of "ground work" someone accustomed to the idea of a stand up fight is going to be in a serious disadvantage as they panic when they are put into an unfamiliar and painful (or choking) position. The ground survival video and seminars give those of us without cross training capabilities some options to work with. Master Rivas said it better himself.

Before I had any brazilian jiu-jitsu experience I would've been in a lot of trouble on the ground. Now that I've had a taste of this as well, it's just a matter of time before I'm right at home on the ground. Rivas' program offers another means to that better ending. It's always good to have options, right? Especially options that get you back up quickly and impart the many vs. one mindset. The whole seminar, Master Rivas was constantly reminding us that there's probably going to be two or three more coming.

One guy asked what neighborhood he lived in that he's always fighting 3 or 4 at a time. :lol:

(And the "tackle GM P" thing was my meager attempt at humor... I guess that's why I'm not a comedian. No offense intended sir.)