How does he do it?
- Thread starter Zeny
- Start date
A very willing partner. 
losers. they have to touch their opponents for this.
this is how to do it:
I don't know if George Dillman does seminars anymore, but if there's ever one within driving distance I highly recommend going. You will be very entertained. I went to one about ten years ago, strictly to see a salesman in action. I took the seminar, quiet and respectful. I'm so glad I went. It was terrific. I'm still smiling, even as I type this.
We all need a little fun in life. Especially in our Martial life.
There's no practical and ethical way I can think of to do the study, but I'd love to see an in-depth scientific examination of how certain instructors get their students psychologically conditioned to throw themselves, go down for no-touch knockouts, react to magical chi blasts, and the like.
Based on my personal experience in the Bujinkan and my outside observation of the phenomenon in other arts, I'm inclined to believe that it often starts with a practitioner who has genuine skills and can apply painful techniques on his demo partner. Over time, the uke starts subconsciously anticipating and reacting to the technique before it is actually applied. If the teacher and the culture encourage the uke to believe that this reaction is the result of super-refined technique or ki power, then the uke can be guided into responding more and more to psychological expectations rather than what is going on physically. In many cases the teacher himself may buy into the same fantasy.
In the videos posted by Zeny above, the instructor is working with push hands, which doesn't have that initial painful component to start the subconscious programming. I suspect the process is still pretty similar. Maybe in the beginning the teacher was genuinely off-balancing the student with actual push hands technique. Once that was established, rather than teaching the student how to correct the flaws in the balance which allowed that to happen, he (consciously or not) guided the student to attribute the result to magical chi forces, to anticipate those forces, and react more and more based on subtle cues from the teacher.
Or maybe the whole thing is just deliberately staged. All we know for sure is that a) the students are jumping around and throwing themselves rather than actually being pushed or pulled off balance and b) the instructor will not demonstrate anything that looks like that with a participant who doesn't already buy into the hype and isn't cooperating.
Based on my personal experience in the Bujinkan and my outside observation of the phenomenon in other arts, I'm inclined to believe that it often starts with a practitioner who has genuine skills and can apply painful techniques on his demo partner. Over time, the uke starts subconsciously anticipating and reacting to the technique before it is actually applied. If the teacher and the culture encourage the uke to believe that this reaction is the result of super-refined technique or ki power, then the uke can be guided into responding more and more to psychological expectations rather than what is going on physically. In many cases the teacher himself may buy into the same fantasy.
In the videos posted by Zeny above, the instructor is working with push hands, which doesn't have that initial painful component to start the subconscious programming. I suspect the process is still pretty similar. Maybe in the beginning the teacher was genuinely off-balancing the student with actual push hands technique. Once that was established, rather than teaching the student how to correct the flaws in the balance which allowed that to happen, he (consciously or not) guided the student to attribute the result to magical chi forces, to anticipate those forces, and react more and more based on subtle cues from the teacher.
Or maybe the whole thing is just deliberately staged. All we know for sure is that a) the students are jumping around and throwing themselves rather than actually being pushed or pulled off balance and b) the instructor will not demonstrate anything that looks like that with a participant who doesn't already buy into the hype and isn't cooperating.
Buka, I agree, I haven't seen Dillman but have watched one of his 'proteges' Paul Bowman do a 'no touch' KO, you're right it was very funny. The second time I saw him was at the seminar in the video below ( my husband is the very unimpressed grey haired chap sitting on the bench in the background) Bowman was due to do his no touch KO right up to the time that Iain Abernethy come into the seminar then it changed to watch you can see in the video. The elaborate bringing round of the downed chap is the same as the no touch KO though.
Grand Master Paul Bowman - Bing video
Grand Master Paul Bowman - Bing video
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Comment on video of post #1 and Post #5.
both fake and not to be taken seriously. Also betting if anyone, that was not their student, walked up to them and said can I try, they would give you some nonsense about how it would be to dangerous, and how their students have been trained to handle it.
both fake and not to be taken seriously. Also betting if anyone, that was not their student, walked up to them and said can I try, they would give you some nonsense about how it would be to dangerous, and how their students have been trained to handle it.
I am not in a position to declare anything 'real' or 'fake', but my impression from the videos is that such things appear not to be real to me. My opinion only.
I believe that the power of suggestion is real and powerful; stage hypnotism can convince normal people to walk around a stage barking like a dog or quacking like a duck. The people who are doing those things probably believe that they are in fact being hypnotized and are compelled to do whatever it is they are doing.
It has been said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I think such is the case in these videos.
Ultimately, the test of any martial arts claim is to reproduce it on an 'unbeliever' who is not associated with nor a student of the person performing the alleged technique.
With that said, I will say that I have seen techniques that seemed unbelievable, and have then had them performed on me and I began to believe in them, because they worked. They were not as 'magical' as the videos shown in this thread seem to show; far more subtle and less spectacular. I firmly believe that the techniques I have experienced are based in good body mechanics and a deep understanding of leverage, human anatomy, and power generation on the part of the practitioner.
I try to keep an open mind. However, not so open that my brains fall out.
I believe that the power of suggestion is real and powerful; stage hypnotism can convince normal people to walk around a stage barking like a dog or quacking like a duck. The people who are doing those things probably believe that they are in fact being hypnotized and are compelled to do whatever it is they are doing.
It has been said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I think such is the case in these videos.
Ultimately, the test of any martial arts claim is to reproduce it on an 'unbeliever' who is not associated with nor a student of the person performing the alleged technique.
With that said, I will say that I have seen techniques that seemed unbelievable, and have then had them performed on me and I began to believe in them, because they worked. They were not as 'magical' as the videos shown in this thread seem to show; far more subtle and less spectacular. I firmly believe that the techniques I have experienced are based in good body mechanics and a deep understanding of leverage, human anatomy, and power generation on the part of the practitioner.
I try to keep an open mind. However, not so open that my brains fall out.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
People get rich because other people are willing to pay for their brand of entertainment.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
What is the point of this thread?
Some of this is questionable and some is real, some is rather well done, and some of what Adam Mizner is doing in this video is real as well. However without being there and being able to push hands with all of them, I cannot tell you fake or real in all cases.
Look at the feet of those that are being pushed, look at the body mechanics, watch the amounts of force being used by attackers.
And I am still wondering "What is the point of this thread?"
OP
Zeny
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2015
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- Thread Starter
- #16
Point of thread:
1) it is interesting to listen to the different views of people with respect to those videos
2) this being a taichi forum, i hope there is someone who could do the above fajin and explain to me the actual mechanics of it. Honestly, i can bounce people 1-2 steps without problem but i cannot do the fajin in the videos
1) it is interesting to listen to the different views of people with respect to those videos
2) this being a taichi forum, i hope there is someone who could do the above fajin and explain to me the actual mechanics of it. Honestly, i can bounce people 1-2 steps without problem but i cannot do the fajin in the videos
In this one, the guy demonstrating is mostly using real technique. His demo dummies are generally overreacting. In some cases it's just being a bit overly compliant and adding an extra 10% or so to their reaction. In other cases they're way overdoing it - maybe not as bad as in the first couple of videos, but definitely overselling it. In a few cases you can see the recipient use his legs to jump up and back, rather than stumbling back because he has been off-balanced.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OK
As I said before, I'm not teaching via web forum. But do what I said as to what to look at, and go from there
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Pretty much... but I can tell you from experience, some of those apparent over reactions are real. But for the most part you are correct, they are over selling it.
To answer the OP's original question AS IF the techniques being demonstrated were 'real', let me repeat:
Unbelievable-looking things can be done by some adepts, but in my limited experience, they are generally less amazing to see. They are, however, amazing to have a given technique performed on one. And the results can be devastating.
I am no expert. I am incredibly fortunate to be trained by experts. It is truly eye-opening. But nothing quite as dramatic as seen in some of the videos above.
1) Deep understanding of body mechanics.
2) Firm understanding of pressure points on humans.
3) Years of experience generating power through leverage, 'rooting', and again, body mechanics.
2) Firm understanding of pressure points on humans.
3) Years of experience generating power through leverage, 'rooting', and again, body mechanics.
Unbelievable-looking things can be done by some adepts, but in my limited experience, they are generally less amazing to see. They are, however, amazing to have a given technique performed on one. And the results can be devastating.
I am no expert. I am incredibly fortunate to be trained by experts. It is truly eye-opening. But nothing quite as dramatic as seen in some of the videos above.
