How do you critique forms?

[Makalakumu]

How do you critique forms? As in, what do you look for? I know that different styles look for different things...and for the purposes of this thead...that is okay. Tell us what YOU look for. Why is one practioner's form good and one practioner's is bad?

 

[Makalakumu]

Alright. Here is one of my pet peeves. If an instructor is looking at your form and making a whole bunch of mintute corrections, shouldn't those corrections be something that actually relates to real life? Shouldn't those little tiny moves actually be helpful in performing an actual technique against another person?

 

[Kacey]

From The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, by Choi, Hong Hi:

The nine points to be observed while performing a pattern
1. Accuracy, a pattern should begin and end at the same spot.
2. Correct posture and facing should be maintained at all times.
3. The muscles of the body should be tensed and relaxed at the proper
moments.
4. A pattern should be performed in a rhythmic movements with an absence
of stiffness
5. Moves should be accelerated or decelerated according to the instructions in
the encyclopedia.
6. Each pattern should be perfected before going on to the next.
7. Students should know the purpose of each movement.
8. Students should perform each move with realism.
9. Attack and defense techniques should be equally distributed among left
and right hands and feet.

All of these points, if properly observed, will improve one's ability to apply the techniques learned in patterns to self-defense, even if you don't understand how at the time you are learning the pattern.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Greetings to all,
This is a great question…

As I have stated many times in other postings; depending on what system you study, and from what organization you belong to forms will change in various ways with regard to the purpose of the individual techniques. For this reason, I always make sure to ask the practitioner performing; what is happening at this point in YOUR hyung? If he/she can explain what they are defending against, and what their response is, I will then check their:
1) Power-Line: This is done by accessing stance position, weight distribution, bone alignments, muscle tension and relaxation
2) Timing and rhythm of techniques
3) Proper distancing in order to be effective at all contact points
4) Make sure that all connection points are in synch.

This is a good start…

People often say things like; well we do our hyung/kata different then you.

That is true, with regard to “Bunkai, Henka and Oyo”, but the points listed in this posting SHOULD be universal throughout the martial arts, regardless of system or organization.

The best way to put things into perspective is to have the practitioner demonstrate the individual techniques, and then the complete series of techniques in a given Hyung section on you with resistance (a real target). This does not mean that they have to, or should hit you with full power. Remember; this kind of training exercise is designed to establish the correct “Power-Line” of the giver technique, not prove how strong they are.

Anyone can blast through you and damage you when you are just standing there like a heavy bag letting them hit you. I have yet to see anyone with the word “EVERLAST” printed across their forehead or chest (except when wearing a sweatshirt from the company). You can help them feel the “Power-Line” without having to resort to injury.

We will cover this at the November seminar…



Regarding:

1. Accuracy, a pattern should begin and end at the same spot.
From The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do, by Choi, Hong Hi:


When the Kata were originally performed in Okinawa, starting and ending on the same spot was not an issue of concern. This was an addition to training that the Japanese adopted in later years under Funakoshi.

Reality tells us that we are not always going to move in the same identical fashion when on different ground, fighting different opponants, with varied weapons, etc.



Yours in Tang Soo Do,



Master Jay S. Penfil



TANG SOO!!!

 

[Makalakumu]

For me, it depends on how one looks at the hyung. There are a couple of ways that see them that are influencing how I critique them.

One way of looking at it is when one learns a form, the movements one learns are your teacher's interpretation of the applications found within. As one begins to understand the hyung better, the form should change so that it reflects your understanding of its applications. In this way, the practice of a hyung becomes like shadowboxing. One ends up using the hyung to practice the fundamentals of the basics and how to link them together.

Another way to look at it is a bit more static. A hyung can be a mnemotic device for martial techniques. Kind of like ROYGBIV is for physicists who need to remember the order of the colors of visible light by decreasing wavelength. In this way, single moves or sections of the form can take on many different interpretations and can inspire different thoughts about techniques and how to use them. Practicing a form like this, however, is much like saying ROYGBIV, it doesn't really work the techniques.

With that being said, I'm looking at a form as a functional way to perform various techniques and as mnemotic device to remember various techniques. Thinking about forms like this has radically changed how I practice and teach them. When I tell a student that their low blocks are to low or high, it isn't because "that is how the hyung is supposed to look" its because there is an actual purpose for the position of the low block.

upnorthkyosa

ps - Only in recent years have I started practicing/teaching hyung like this. It is a work in progress...

 

[MBuzzy]

I have recently advanced in rank, so my Sa Bom Nim has be teaching other students the basics sometimes. When I'm doing this, in your opinion, is it best to teach those minute details from the start or just teach the movements and refine positioning later? i.e. what is more important when first learning a new Hyung, attention to detail, or memorizing the movements and order?

 

[Makalakumu]

I have recently advanced in rank, so my Sa Bom Nim has be teaching other students the basics sometimes. When I'm doing this, in your opinion, is it best to teach those minute details from the start or just teach the movements and refine positioning later? i.e. what is more important when first learning a new Hyung, attention to detail, or memorizing the movements and order?

At this time in your martial journey, I would do it as your sa bom directs you. Attempt to understand that thought process and ask questions that will build your understanding of it. When you have built this intellectual base, then you can begin to compare and effectively critique what you know.

 

[michaeledward]

How do you critique forms?

An interesting question. I look forward to the contributions from the more and most experienced among us. My instructor recently successfully competed in Las Vegas with discrete form of his own creation. Among the cast of hundreds competing, what were those judges looking for? An interesting question indeed.

As a young student, I try best to understand what I am doing in the form. What is the motion teaching me. Often times, I can not determine this on my own. When the instructor explains the meaning to me, the effect the motion is designed to have, suddenly, the form begins to make sense.

7. Students should know the purpose of each movement.

When I look at my colleagues and peers, as they run their forms, it is quite easy to determine if they are aware of the 'purpose' of the movement.

A pet peeve of mine ... when instructors don't instruct on this information. Often you hear the argument "you're supposed to figure it out yourself" ... well, they why am I paying you money?

Certainly, not everything can be explained at once. Learning theory becomes an important piece of information for the instructor. But to explain the purpose of the movement should not be outside of the curriculum.

One example ... I recently reviewed American Kenpo Long Form 2 with Mr. Planas. There is a section with a left block-right punch combination is followed by a left punch-right punch combination. For years, I was not drawing the right hand fully back between the two right punches. Mr. Planas said that correctly drawing the right hand back teaches us 'realistic positions' in the form. Once he pointed this out (and its corrollaries), it was obvious to me. I wonder how many times other more experienced practitioners watched me do that Form incorrectly, and did not correct it.

So, yes, at this point, I place great importance on knowing 'WHY' a movement is included in the form.

Hope you don't mind a Kenpo Guy adding his thoughts in here.

 

[Brother John]

How do you critique forms? As in, what do you look for? I know that different styles look for different things...and for the purposes of this thead...that is okay. Tell us what YOU look for. Why is one practioner's form good and one practioner's is bad?

also from upnorthkyosa:

Here is one of my pet peeves. If an instructor is looking at your form and making a whole bunch of mintute corrections, shouldn't those corrections be something that actually relates to real life? Shouldn't those little tiny moves actually be helpful in performing an actual technique against another person?

Critiquing forms: a very good topic by the way.
I find it difficult to judge the forms of someone from a style I've never studied, because one of the primary things I look for is "intent"...do the persons movements indicate that they know and understand the actual function of the movements. (relates to the second UpNorth quote above) If it's my student, I look for them to have the exact movements that indicate they KNOW what it is they are doing exactly...I should be able to visualize the person(s) they are whoopin up on and SEE their reactions adapted too by the student. (Hope that makes sense, haven't had enough coffee yet :drinkbeer:caffeine: )
Other than this: I should of course see the correct sequence of movements done at an appropriate pace and level of intensity...again showing me that these movements they are doing would WORK. Forms done lightly, or at a slower pace are good for training and practice or when you ask a student to do so so that you can be very exacting on their angles and such, but otherwise.....a fully functional form needs more than just correct angle and placement and sequence, it also needs a decent pace and power.

Another ingredient that I feel is important is "emotional impact". Not that I want them growling or anything, but a placid look on their face is fine for Taijiquan perhaps (don't know...it's not my art)...but for me they need to look and "Feel" like they are in a life or death struggle. NOT fear or panic, but someone moving with confidence or what my instructors always called "Move with Authority". This is a very key ingredient and I think it shows quite a bit of cultivation..so long as the other ingredients are there: otherwise it's just a confident guy getting beat up.

Good topic
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

When I look at my colleagues and peers, as they run their forms, it is quite easy to determine if they are aware of the 'purpose' of the movement.

A pet peeve of mine ... when instructors don't instruct on this information. Often you hear the argument "you're supposed to figure it out yourself" ... well, they why am I paying you money?

Certainly, not everything can be explained at once. Learning theory becomes an important piece of information for the instructor. But to explain the purpose of the movement should not be outside of the curriculum.

So, yes, at this point, I place great importance on knowing 'WHY' a movement is included in the form.

Excellent points Mike!!
I should have read through all of the posts, you said my thoughts very very well. (probably better than I could)
If the PURPOSE isn't there, the Form ISN'T there!

...just nother Kenpo dude....

Your Brother
John

 

[Makalakumu]

It is interesting to point out a difference in perspective from TSD guys and Kenpo guys. Thanks, michaeledward and Brother John for posting in this thread by the way.

From what I know of kenpo, the forms were constructed so all of the "techniques" for self defense are strung together and could be practiced. A "technique" to a kenpo practicioner is what we would call a one-step or an Ill Soo Shik.

This way of practicing forms was the original purpose that the authors of our forms intended. Along the way, changes have been made to the forms that reflect the "person who is changing the form's" understanding of application. This causes our forms to be much more interpretive...and ultimately subjective.

 

[Brother John]

From what I know of kenpo, the forms were constructed so all of the "techniques" for self defense are strung together and could be practiced. A "technique" to a kenpo practicioner is what we would call a one-step or an Ill Soo Shik.

This way of practicing forms was the original purpose that the authors of our forms intended. Along the way, changes have been made to the forms that reflect the "person who is changing the form's" understanding of application. This causes our forms to be much more interpretive...and ultimately subjective.

Agreed.
I studied Tae Kwan Do Moo Duk Kwan for a little over 5 years, so I understand what you are saying about the Hyung. I think that this issue crosses lines from one art to the next though; if you don't know what it is you are doing, exactly, then why do it? Same thing that my TKD instructor got across to me.

Your Brother
John

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Greetings to all,
I find that when students are taught hyung/kata, and they are not being honed to perform techniques correctly, they practice incorrect techniques repetitiously, “INCORRECTLY”, hence developing muscle memory that is exactly what they have been taught… incorrect movement.

Hwang Kee once said; if you perform 10,000 reverse punches incorrectly, at the end of your training you will do reverse punches really well, INCORRECTLY.

When a student on my floor performs a technique incorrectly, either during Basics, Il Soo Sik, Hyung, what-ever… I stop that student on the spot and demonstrate and explain what they are doing, and fix it right then and there. To allow a student to continue to practice incorrectly is irresponsible on the part of the teacher.

There are far too many people calling themselves Teachers, Kyo Sa’s, Sa Bom’s Sensei’s, Sifu’s, etc. who are nothing more then Drill Sergeants. Anyone can stand at the front of the room and give commands and count… that isn’t teaching.

A true Teacher, Kyo Sa, Sa Bom, Sensei, Sifu, etc. sees his/her students as individual works of art, and is (forever) honing, sculpting, forming what he/she wants the world to see as their “masterpiece”. If you don’t feel this way about those who you are charging and teaching, you are doing a great disservice to your students and the whole of the martial arts community.

NEVER stand there in front of any student/class, see errors being performed, practiced and honed into muscle memory and say NOTHING. That is not teaching…

In presenting these statements here in this posting, it is not my desire, goal or intension to upset or assault anyone. I know that those who post here are of the highest level of integrity, and it shows in the level of involvement and information that gets shared here. That is why I continue to post here.

It is my intended goal to get across to all, the passion that I have for teaching, and developing each and every student that I come into contact with into the very best technician that they can be… What ever their personal goals are should be well within their grasp and by constantly honing them and refining them, they will achieve their goals, that much sooner.


When students are taught simply the pattern of movements, and not given the understanding of the fine points in the beginning, they establish incorrect muscle memory, and then at that point in the future when someone finally gets around to fixing there understanding, it is 10 times harder for them to “relearn” because they are now fighting their own muscle memory. Teach it right the first time, and save the student the trouble of having to re-learn it over and over again…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[tshadowchaser]

Well said sir.

If I judge forms I look for a few things
1 Balance
2 the eyes of the competitor ( are they seeing and living the form and opponents or looking all over the place or lost)
3 their feet ( are the stances all the same width, and distance apart, dose the ear foot come off the ground only part of the time or all of the time or not at all)
4 power and focus
5 is their heat being put into the form or are they just making moves and noises

Now that being said I would also like to know if the person in front of me knows what the movements mean but in competition I have never seen a judge ask that question

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Hyung/Kata competition is only about presentation of technique, however, I can watch a competitor perform and know if they truly know what they are doing or not.

I am Jewish, and as a young man I had to learn a portion of the Torah and read it in front of the congregation for my Bar-Mitzva. The problem that I found (as many do) was that although we were taught the Hebrew alphabet and how to sound out the words to the point that we could read Hebrew fluently, we were not taught how to translate what we were reading into English. If you were there to hear me read from the Torah on the day of my Bar-Mitzva you would have thought that Hebrew was my first language… The truth is that I did not understand one word of what I was reading and when I asked my Rabbi what it al meant he simply said… just say it and it will be alright. That was my last day of reading Hebrew.

I see martial training the same way… if you are not taught to translate the techniques into reality… you may as well be doing aerobics.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[Brother John]

I see martial training the same way… if you are not taught to translate the techniques into reality… you may as well be doing aerobics.

Very well said sir.
Good analogy too!!


Your Brother
John

 

[Chizikunbo]

Hyung/Kata competition is only about presentation of technique, however, I can watch a competitor perform and know if they truly know what they are doing or not.

I am Jewish, and as a young man I had to learn a portion of the Torah and read it in front of the congregation for my Bar-Mitzva. The problem that I found (as many do) was that although we were taught the Hebrew alphabet and how to sound out the words to the point that we could read Hebrew fluently, we were not taught how to translate what we were reading into English. If you were there to hear me read from the Torah on the day of my Bar-Mitzva you would have thought that Hebrew was my first language… The truth is that I did not understand one word of what I was reading and when I asked my Rabbi what it al meant he simply said… just say it and it will be alright. That was my last day of reading Hebrew.

I see martial training the same way… if you are not taught to translate the techniques into reality… you may as well be doing aerobics.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Very nice response master penfil,
I will add this...I have seen many great martial artists whose forms did not look like the clear standard for excellence. But they knew what they were doing, how and why. I have met some not so good martial artists, who had superb kata/hyung, snappy sharp everything, but did not know what they were doing. They had not understanding of technique etc. Technique is not just kick/ punch, but rather it is a clear understanding of philosophy, agression etc. To have good techinque it takes alot of introspection. Anyone can kick/punch i.e. cause damage. But not everyone can perform true technique. True technique is a physical expression of your spirit, guided through your mind. etc. etc.
Kata or Hyung alone does not teach technique...You can not just look at a person that appears to have good forms and say they are a good martial artist. What are you judging for good? Good show?, or true understanding of what they are doing every second. There is no purpose to training ing forms if you do not do so with a clear goal in mind. Just mindlessly performing hyung will get you know where. To judge a form is to judge the artist, but it is sometimes unwise to judge a painting by its protective case...
Whew might have gone overboard there with the cryptic stuff...my bad...
--josh