Historically or traditionally Christian martial arts

[Daniel Sullivan]

I do not know if this is the right place to post this, so if not, I request that the mods move it to the correct category.

For starters, I would like to open with my position that I generally do not like the idea of categorizing a martial art by religion. It seems to be only "Christian martial artists" who do this. I am not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; not the topic of this thread.

But as the OP, I do not generally categorize an art in that fashion.

Now that that is out of the way, here is the topic:
I see a lot of "Christian" martial arts that are simply karate or some other Asian martial art that is traditionally associated with with an Asian religion or philosophy (such as Shinto, Buddhism, or Zen) with that religion or philosophy being replaced by Christianity and then marketed as "Christian martial arts."

But are there any martial arts that have either an inherently Christian background for cultural reasons, or are there any martial arts that began with Chrisitan spirituality as a core part of the art from the outset (as opposed to a Christianized version of an existing art)? Where Christian spirituality is traditionally and/or historically associated with the art?

Personally, I do not know of any off the top of my head.

Daniel

 

[Chris Parker]

I suppose the closest I can think of would be the Knight's Templar, originally known as The Poor Knight's Of The Temple Of Solomon. According to the stories, they started as a small band of nine older French Knights who pledged to protect pilgrims on their journey to the Holy Land in the Crusades. As part of their origin, the Knights gave up their lands and holdings in order to commit to the protection of the Road to Jerusalem, which gave rise to some classic Templar iconography such as two knights riding on one horse.

When they reached the Holy Land, they were given lodgings in the Temple Mount, and there are various stories of them stemming from that. But the idea of the Temple Knights was that they were pretty much part monk, part medieval warrior. They were some of the original Christian Warriors, so there practices would be considered Christian martial arts, I suppose. The only thing that stops it being a definate candidate is that their methods (or those particular to the Knights Templar) have been lost to time (there are groups who study older methods of Western combat, so that would probably be the closest).

Of course, the Knights Templar rose in power and influence until the were betrayed and each of their establishments were raided, with many Templars being arrested or killed, and their possessions forfeited. This happened on October, Friday 13th, 1307, and is thought to be one possible reason for the superstition surrounding Friday the 13th. The turning on the Knights Templar happened for a number of reasons, and there were various stories spread to garner public support for their overthrow. These include the Temple Knights being Satan worshippers, pagans, heathens, and more. Another accusation was that they were closet-Muslims. This has some veracity, as there are some very Muslim-influenced aspects to the iconography of the Templars, taken from sects such as Sufism. This iconography still exists in groups such as the Freemasons. So if they were closet Muslims, that may rule them out here...

 

[bluekey88]

That would be my take...western weaaons based MA. Really, I don't see such a close tie between Christianity and martial arts as I do say with Easten/Asian religions/philophies and MA's. Not sure why that is though.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose the closest I can think of would be the Knight's Templar, originally known as The Poor Knight's Of The Temple Of Solomon. According to the stories, they started as a small band of nine older French Knights who pledged to protect pilgrims on their journey to the Holy Land in the Crusades. As part of their origin, the Knights gave up their lands and holdings in order to commit to the protection of the Road to Jerusalem, which gave rise to some classic Templar iconography such as two knights riding on one horse.

When they reached the Holy Land, they were given lodgings in the Temple Mount, and there are various stories of them stemming from that. But the idea of the Temple Knights was that they were pretty much part monk, part medieval warrior. They were some of the original Christian Warriors, so there practices would be considered Christian martial arts, I suppose. The only thing that stops it being a definate candidate is that their methods (or those particular to the Knights Templar) have been lost to time (there are groups who study older methods of Western combat, so that would probably be the closest).

Of course, the Knights Templar rose in power and influence until the were betrayed and each of their establishments were raided, with many Templars being arrested or killed, and their possessions forfeited. This happened on October, Friday 13th, 1307, and is thought to be one possible reason for the superstition surrounding Friday the 13th. The turning on the Knights Templar happened for a number of reasons, and there were various stories spread to garner public support for their overthrow. These include the Temple Knights being Satan worshippers, pagans, heathens, and more. Another accusation was that they were closet-Muslims. This has some veracity, as there are some very Muslim-influenced aspects to the iconography of the Templars, taken from sects such as Sufism. This iconography still exists in groups such as the Freemasons. So if they were closet Muslims, that may rule them out here...

Of course the other question of the Templars would be whether or not they had a specific systematized martial art or if they simply were using the same Western martial conventions that other knights used. As you pointed out, the answer to that question is lost, though I am inclined to think the latter.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That would be my take...western weaaons based MA. Really, I don't see such a close tie between Christianity and martial arts as I do say with Easten/Asian religions/philophies and MA's. Not sure why that is though.

Peace,
Erik

I think that in general, western culture compartmentalizes things differently than eastern cultures. Spirituality is something that you believe, while martial arts are just skills that are useful for defeating an enemy.

Daniel

 

[mwd0818]

None that I know of, unless some fighting method was developed to defend against lions in Rome??

Honestly, having studied religion and philosophy around the world, I see why some people replace some ideals and develop a "Christian Martial Art."

First, it's easy to add in the spiritual components of training. It can be difficult to really verbalize, but the raw component of fighting for one's survival integrates well with philosophical musings and spirituality. The exploration of combat becomes an exploration of the self. Add to that the idea of detachment (critical in Buddhist thought) and you develop the idea of mu-shin (no-mind). Arriving at this state without thought and you become, in Western terms, "in the zone." These are all parts of advanced martial training.

Second, it's easy to replace Buddhism or Shinto or Taoist thought with ideals from other religious schools. The reason? There are very few religions or world philosophies that truly contradict each other with respect to behavior and thought. The WHY behind things might be different, the terms may be different, but often the WHAT and the HOW are the same. Christians are taught compassion and understanding as an expression of Godly love and following Jesus. Buddhists are taught compassion and understanding as a way to end suffering and embrace their natural Buddha-self and fulfill the bodhisattva ideals. The WHY is indeed different (Jesus versus Bodhisattva), but the WHAT (compassion and understanding) are the same. Traditional Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, Taoism, etc.) all are generally pretty malleable systems that can easily fit in with traditional Western religions. I think that is why you see "Christian Martial Arts" that aren't originally Christian or from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset at all, but rather ports of Eastern religions and philosophies.

Additional points:

One also sees the development of "Christian Martial Arts" as a way to justify practicing an art that has non-Christian philosophies and spirituality to it. Some people find this a problem with their own faith, so if it can be altered to fit Christian ideals, then it is allowed to be practiced. If it can't, it is to be shunned as taking away from Christian pursuits at best, and at worst, it is considered an affront to Christianity.

Second (comical note) - there is no way historically speaking for their to be a Judeo-Christian martial art. Jews throughout history have been the victim of invasions, takeovers, slavery and just generally been treated as the red-headed stepchild of indigenous peoples. At no point in history have the Jews been able to establish themselves as holders of a consistent country (had to have the rest of the Western world help them to get Israel, and we all have seen what happens there!). Thus, any martial art system truly from Judeo-Christian traditions is obviously worthless and ineffective.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, I feel the same. However, it could be argued that each different Japanese sword system is basically the same as each other, as they all use similarly designed weapons (single edge, curved etc), similar actions (cut straight down, diagonally, thrust etc), and similar tactics (fake and enter, jam and re-direct, then counter cut, evasive cutting etc). But each different group approached the training in their own way, with their own influences, giving rise to differences between the various classical Ryuha.

In regard to the Temple Knights, they were a group that kept very much to themselves, and in order to gain acceptance to the group, certain requirements needed to be met. This leads me to believe that the Templars trained primarily within their own groups, which would naturally lead to certain training habits and tactics, which we would most likely regard as a separate martial art if it survived past it's usefulness on the battlefield and continued to be taught and developed in peacetime (as this is how the majority of Koryu systems came to be what we know them as today).

Oh, and we should also include groups such as Constantine's forces. Basically a Roman Army, when Constantine converted to Christianity (after his mother came into contact with a number of relics, most famously nails and pieces of the True Cross, and the Spear Of Christ), the Christian symbols were adopted. The spear was said to be carried into battle at all times, and while it was there, the Army of Constantine was considered to be unbeatable. This was attributed to the Christian God protecting the soldiers, so that could make their training a version of Christian martial arts as well, but we will of course have the same question as with the Templars.

 

[Blindside]

Oh, and we should also include groups such as Constantine's forces. Basically a Roman Army, when Constantine converted to Christianity (after his mother came into contact with a number of relics, most famously nails and pieces of the True Cross, and the Spear Of Christ), the Christian symbols were adopted. The spear was said to be carried into battle at all times, and while it was there, the Army of Constantine was considered to be unbeatable. This was attributed to the Christian God protecting the soldiers, so that could make their training a version of Christian martial arts as well, but we will of course have the same question as with the Templars.

I think you would have to consider any army that followed Constantine to be a mixture of faiths, whatever the faith of Constatine. The intentional melding of the cult of Mithras with the Christian traditions by Constatine is often seen as a way of making Christianity acceptable to the military because of the at this point in history the worship of Mithras was widespread in the armies.

And if we were going to use Constantine's armies as an example, it would kinda suck to have the first "Christian martial art" to be involved with the first intra-Christian persecution.

 

[mwd0818]

And if we were going to use Constantine's armies as an example, it would kinda suck to have the first "Christian martial art" to be involved with the first intra-Christian persecution.

But would probably be most accurate . . .

 

[thardey]

Check out Gerard Thibault's treatise on fencing.

I'll have to paraphrase from memory, but the basic idea is that during the Renaissance, philosophers, theologians, and scientists began adopting some Platonic ideas into their philosophy. A current example would be the search for Phi, or the "perfect ratio" described in the "Da Vinci Code."

The idea was that there was a sacred geometry, partially based on nature, including the human proportions, and that to understand God, you had to understand the mysteries of geometry.

It may sound totally hokey, but many advances in music theory, architecture, and math came out of this pursuit.

Fencing was a part of it. The more you were supposedly "in tune" with this sacred geometry, the more righteous you were, and the more able to accomplish what you wanted -- to defend yourself. Spiritually speaking, dueling was about finding "truth" both literally and spiritually.

Of course, this was an obscure branch Christianity that was lost over time, and very few Christians know about it. But many of the ideas from this period are still visible in art, Catholic symbolism, the shape and proportions of cathedrals. There may even be some cross-over between some of the religious rituals, but I haven't dug into it that far.

So, I guess I would classify it as a Catholic-based martial art, which is, of course also Christian. But today, the religion is divorced from the art. (possible due to the idea that fencing is almost entirely done for sport these days.)

I'm sure Tibault wasn't the only fencing master who did this, but it is the most obvious from his writings that he was tying the ideas together into one concept.

 

[Blindside]

It is a hard thing to identify a martial tradition with a particular religion in the west. Without getting into the whole "are Catholics Christians argument," certainly the militaries of Charlemagne or imperial Spain could fall under the same criteria as groups with at least a partial purpose of converting others to the cross.

 

[thardey]

For more information, compare the ideas in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry

with this fencing plate from Thibault's manual, showing proportions and footwork. (His own version of the vetruvian man.)

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_thibault

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is a hard thing to identify a martial tradition with a particular religion in the west. Without getting into the whole "are Catholics Christians argument," certainly the militaries of Charlemagne or imperial Spain could fall under the same criteria as groups with at least a partial purpose of converting others to the cross.

For the purposes of this discussion, I am using the term 'Christian' to be very inclusive. That would include (but not necesarilly be limited to) the various Catholic sects (there are more than one), Protestant denomenations (not sure where Quakers, Shakers, and Amish fit in, but them too), non-denominational, and Evangelicals.

By historically and traditionally, I mean arts that have a degree of antiquity or that are modern, but that began as unique arts with Christian spirituality as their base.

By unique, I mean a fresh system with its own forms (if any) and curriculum. The art may share techniques with other arts, but simply is categorized separately them (such as how Aikido and Hapkido share techniques with and are descended from Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, but neither are DRAJ and each is considered a separate art from the other).

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

For the purposes of this discussion, I am using the term 'Christian' to be very inclusive. That would include (but not necesarilly be limited to) the various Catholic sects (there are more than one), Protestant denomenations (not sure where Quakers, Shakers, and Amish fit in, but them too), non-denominational, and Evangelicals.

By historically and traditionally, I mean arts that have a degree of antiquity or that are modern, but that began as unique arts with Christian spirituality as their base.

By unique, I mean a fresh system with its own forms (if any) and curriculum. The art may share techniques with other arts, but simply is categorized separately them (such as how Aikido and Hapkido share techniques with and are descended from Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, but neither are DRAJ and each is considered a separate art from the other).

Daniel

I know little about Christian traditions though I do know Quakers are pacifists and don't fight not even in wars though they are courageous in the non combatant works they do, ie medics, ambulance drivers etc.

Does Fiore dei Liberi's l'arte dell armizare fit the bill at all? I think if there is a 'Christian' martial art it would probably be a Spanish or Italian one?

Very interesting discussion as western arts are often overlooked by westerners assuming that home grown arts are inferior to eastern ones.

 

[morph4me]

I think that the idea of Christian martial arts is more of the application of the art using christian ideals than and actual art with it's orgins in christianity. I admit that I don't know what tha means exactly, but there are some members here who can explain it.

 

[Tez3]

None that I know of, unless some fighting method was developed to defend against lions in Rome??

Honestly, having studied religion and philosophy around the world, I see why some people replace some ideals and develop a "Christian Martial Art."

First, it's easy to add in the spiritual components of training. It can be difficult to really verbalize, but the raw component of fighting for one's survival integrates well with philosophical musings and spirituality. The exploration of combat becomes an exploration of the self. Add to that the idea of detachment (critical in Buddhist thought) and you develop the idea of mu-shin (no-mind). Arriving at this state without thought and you become, in Western terms, "in the zone." These are all parts of advanced martial training.

Second, it's easy to replace Buddhism or Shinto or Taoist thought with ideals from other religious schools. The reason? There are very few religions or world philosophies that truly contradict each other with respect to behavior and thought. The WHY behind things might be different, the terms may be different, but often the WHAT and the HOW are the same. Christians are taught compassion and understanding as an expression of Godly love and following Jesus. Buddhists are taught compassion and understanding as a way to end suffering and embrace their natural Buddha-self and fulfill the bodhisattva ideals. The WHY is indeed different (Jesus versus Bodhisattva), but the WHAT (compassion and understanding) are the same. Traditional Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, Taoism, etc.) all are generally pretty malleable systems that can easily fit in with traditional Western religions. I think that is why you see "Christian Martial Arts" that aren't originally Christian or from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset at all, but rather ports of Eastern religions and philosophies.

Additional points:

One also sees the development of "Christian Martial Arts" as a way to justify practicing an art that has non-Christian philosophies and spirituality to it. Some people find this a problem with their own faith, so if it can be altered to fit Christian ideals, then it is allowed to be practiced. If it can't, it is to be shunned as taking away from Christian pursuits at best, and at worst, it is considered an affront to Christianity.

Second (comical note) - there is no way historically speaking for their to be a Judeo-Christian martial art. Jews throughout history have been the victim of invasions, takeovers, slavery and just generally been treated as the red-headed stepchild of indigenous peoples. At no point in history have the Jews been able to establish themselves as holders of a consistent country (had to have the rest of the Western world help them to get Israel, and we all have seen what happens there!). Thus, any martial art system truly from Judeo-Christian traditions is obviously worthless and ineffective.

Oh really? have a look at Masada, Zealots, Maccabees, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters Haganah, Shin Bet, me when very annoyed. We can fight you know!Holding a country has nothing to do with doing a martial art, if it were Okinawa wouldn't be known for much.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Would the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch count as a Christian martial art


sorry couldn't resist, I will go now

 

[Tez3]

Would the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch count as a Christian martial art


sorry couldn't resist, I will go now

:roflmao:

 

[Omar B]

Turning the other cheek? Getting eaten by the lion?

 

[David43515]

Some of the Northern Filipino styles are very heavily influenced by Catholicism. Not the fighting theories themselves, but many use religious prayers and charms as protective magic. Also some of the exersises are named after certain saints.