Historical Legitamticy of Russian Martial Arts

[Pervaz]

Does anyone know if there are historical organised documents(?) of any of the derivatives for RMA ie. ROSS/Kad/Systema et al.

One of my old friends and I were discussing the similarties and differences between the arts and this question popped up.

P

 

[chaosomega]

Shoto.com has some information. I don't know if it's accurate or if it's everything you need but, try it I guess. Just click on the link that says "Russian" at the top of the page.

 

[Rich_]

Kadochnikov developed his own system from first principles; it's not 'traditional' in any way. ROSS (and, I understand, Systema too) worked his system into a more general overview of native Russian styles.

 

[jellyman]

I have read that K actually was a student of Spiridonov (sp) inventor of SAM - the system that never officially exisyed, but was loved by the NKVD and certain groups of officers. K's twist was that he applied his knowledge of physics to analyze the movements and produce a new approach.

 

[Rich_]

Originally posted by jellyman
I have read that K actually was a student of Spiridonov (sp) inventor of SAM - the system that never officially exisyed, but was loved by the NKVD and certain groups of officers. K's twist was that he applied his knowledge of physics to analyze the movements and produce a new approach.

I've not heard that at all, and it seems a little doubtful to say the least. Spiridonov is very well-known as one of the Sambo 'big three', being a (or the) prime developer behind the NKVD's combat sambo. It certainly officially existed! To have been a student would be prestigious. Also, it would be a big political lever to get official acceptance of the Kadochnikov style into training, something that was never taught to the military.

Also, the styles are really markedly different, from what I've seen. Certainly not dismissing it out of hand, but it does sound like another Russian 'glamour of the spetsnaz' story.

 

[jellyman]

I've not heard that at all, and it seems a little doubtful to say the least.

Well, just to show you I didn't make it up, I found a palgiarized copy of the first article I read on the history of Sambo (I'll post the original link when I get home)

http://www.geocities.com/hellasjeetkunedo/RussianMartialArts.html

Another verison of Spiridonov's system is so-called "Kadochnikov's system". A.A.Kadochnikov works as teacher of theoretical mechanicks in Krasnodar military colledge of rocketry and artillery. On the base of Spiridonov's work and his own knoledges about mechanics of movement he developed his own system of hand-to-hand combat. This is science-based investigations of our time, useful in real fighting. He tried to establish his system as basic system for army's hand-to hand combat, but without success.

"Spiridonov is very well-known as one of the Sambo 'big three', being a (or the) prime developer behind the NKVD's combat sambo."

Well, yes, everyone knew about him, but again, from that link, and other accounts, which I'll link when I get home, 'officially' not acknowledged by the Soviets. Sort of an open secret. From the link:

Oshchepkov didn't agreed to keep silence about oriental origin of his system. As a result, he was arrested as "japanese spy" and immediately killed in prison. His school kept existence and became a base of modern sambo (SAMBO is "SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya" - "Self-defence without weapon"). New heads of school (Kharlampiev, quickly named as "creator of sambo", and others) made great efforts for deleting all similarities between sambo and oriental martial arts. Gradually the best martial art of soviet time became not the best sport competition art... Spiridonov's system had another fate. This system didn't exist officially, but kept in real life: this school was popular among NKVD officers.

How true? Couldn't tell you (hence 'I heard'). For example, the same article says all current styles of RMA are descended from K, yet what I've seen of Borba and Buza doesn't really look much like what I've seen of K's work.

The article also says that spetsnaz only use a simplified sambo/karate/TKD hybrid, and while in fact I have seen regular spetz trainees demonstrating pretty much exactly that (even took a pic and posted it on my web site), the fact remains that VV/MR were the ones who got me on that spetz base, which strongly implies that they're spetz, or connected to them, and systema ain't no sambo/karate hybrid. Other eastern bloc ex-commandos I have met have told me that the form of Rupokashni Boi taught really varied with the actual unit and the region it was based in.

One article I read describing Spiridonov's work sounds a lot like systema, especially in terms of combat philosophy.

 

[jellyman]

Here's the original article that the geocities website copied:

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/ruseng.html

It's got pictures!

 

[jellyman]

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi/statyi/

Okay, the above page has a series of articles on the history of RMA, interviews with some guys, etc. etc.

Only problem: it's all in Russian. Alta Vista can handle russian, but it's a major pain, and the translation is frankly crude. It's also quite big. Now, I've bought the translation software Alta Vista uses and 'translated' these articles, but I'm not sure of the legal ramifications of distributing them on the net, which is why I haven'y put them up at my site...

That said, I could easily email the translated articles. But I wish someone who knew russian would translate...

 

[Rich_]

Thanks for the links, interesting stuff. I think the article's a little off-base in its assessment of Kadochnikov's influences (even by his own description) and its all-encompassing influence on other styles.

As for the sambo/karate/TKD hybrid, I can well believe that. The thing is, 'spetsnaz' really only means special forces. As a term, it covers army, navy, air force; anti-terrorist, deep infiltration, you name it. There's a tendency outside of Russia to think of the spetsnaz as a military unit like the SAS or Delta Force.

As would be expected, the units train according to what they need. Few soldiers need great hand-to-hand skills, as they have a knife, a rifle, grenades, air support, and so on.

 

[jellyman]

Oh, I'm not about to take all that stuff as gospel, but what I look for is common threads from all the different accounts.

For example, just about all accounts talk about a sort of shadowy MA practiced within the Russian military. What it is and where it came from are the subject of debate, as you can see from reading the various accounts, but that much I can see as established in all accounts.

Anyway, I think we agree, really.