Hikite!

[letsplaygames]

I see a lot people on the internet get bogged down in the weeds on Hikite.

Is it power generation?
Is it a pulling hand?

In my humble opinion ... it's both and much more. Hence no argument.

IMO... Those who argue against Hikite being a power generation, to me.... they don't practice their Karate on an internal level. One can't look at Karate in the same light as western boxing. Yes, I believe there similar striking methods in karate as in Boxing. Kage Zuki, Ura Zuki, even Muwashi Zuki. That said... I think of Hikite as a power generation and I'm referring to body mechanics similar to well known body mechanics used in Wing Chun's one inch punch, or Xingiquan's Beng Quan, to include the stepping methods.

Example of Hikite: I was taught my Oi Zuki should mimic the properties of a bag of rice. What do I mean by that? Think if a 100 pound bag of rice flying through the air at you at the speed of a punch (average speed of a punch is 20-25 mph) What do you think would happen to the average person trying to catch a 100 lbs bag of rice traveling 25 miles an hour?

Now think of focusing the force of the bag of rice into the knuckles of a fist. To do this the the arm and shoulder's structure can not collapse, and the weight of the body, the mass, it must project through the target.

The bodies structure and the ability not to fold upon itself as the intended target slows/stops the forward movement of the strike is critical. Hence Hikite... the motion locks the shoulders to the torso, keeps the arm from collapsing, allowing the whole mass of the body to be used. Yes... key stepping methods are fundamental to hikite. Yes, of course one doesn't only use this as a sole method. Yes in close you get your hands up, yes good fundamentals is to block/guard while striking in close... etc Not to develop the bodies structure for power... is ignoring a whole set of tactics and tools that is in Karate.

That is one part of Hikite.

IMO... those who argue against Hikite being a pulling motion, to me, they don't understand a major key that unlocks Karate's true effectiveness. I was taught to use hikite tactically no different than a how Judo-ka or Jujitsu-ka uses grips. Pulling, pushing, to disrupt the opponent's body mechanics, instead of having a central theme of throwing and grappling... the central theme is pugilistic in nature.

An Example of Hikite: Take a left leg forward zenkustu dachi, have a training partner face you standing in a right leg forward zenkutsu dachi. Extend your left arm and take a strong grip of his kogi at his right shoulder & have him try to touch you with his left arm, when he tries... pull his right shoulder forward to prevent the touch. If he can't touch you, then he can't grab, punch you with the left hand...( same goes for kicks) Through hikite you control his center, & his balance... When you gain skill in this ... at that point , your pulling your opponent into punches, strikes, kicks, etc , Your disrupting his root, sweeping him, throwing or forcing him to soak up the max force your issuing, but that's just the start... cause that's just the pulling aspect,, there are a plethora pushing tactics too...

Hikite is so much more than just one concept...

Hope this helps to keep some people out of the weeds

 

[_Simon_]

Thanks Paul, enjoyed the post.

Yes hikite is definitely a divisive topic . I quite like hikite even as a way of coordinating and connecting the body a bit more to your centre.

Yeah the power generation thing was always a bit iffy (the argument being that rotation around the central 'Y' axis not actually translating into forward linear momentum). But I really like what you explain about it being more about creating a stable body structure as you hit, hence the power/body mass being more directed into the strike. Good stuff

I'm sure we'll get some interesting views pop up here hehe

 

[letsplaygames]

Agreed Simon..
I'm sure will get some interesting views and thoughts.

Yes the Y axis theory of Hikite never quite satisfied my thought process as to why or if .. Think there is some validity, boxer do it too. So IMO it's part of the equation. That said ... stable body structures/alignment to drive your mass is a key ingredient to my karate.

We consist of short fiber muscles that are for fast actions and reflexive actions, and long fiber muscles that are for stability and strength. The long fiber muscles... are what keep us erect all day... think about it.. few muscles are strong enough for us to be using all day. These long fiber muscles most of the time... we are unaware we are using them. ( till you get old, like me) ligaments and tendons attach to these short and fast twitch muscles. Few ways to strengthen the ligaments, tendons and long fiber muscles its hard to build them up with weight training, one has to target the muscle complex specifically and often times weights get in the way.

Core strength (one hears physical therapists talk about it all the time)

A great internal exercise to develop a stable body structure for OI zuki that I use.

In a hachiji dachi: I'll extend my migi zuki (right fist) to shoulder height. (jodan) approach a wall but stop about a foot away. Then lean against the wall, supported only by my migi zuki (usually contact with the wall is by the index and middle knuckles only) Then I take my left fist and perform Hikite to my left hip... focusing on pushing my core to the wall while keeping my torso behind the right fist. One can really feel the body alignment take root.

There I'll stand till I get tired, then switch sides.. the muscles that expire are not the one's you would think... it's the long fiber muscles that your strengthening.

If you take your left arm and bring it up to your chest or over by your left ear as if like your using a guard... you will notice your core wants to move towards the wall .. its because you have broke the connection between the torso and the shoulders hence weakened the structure. That is not to say one can't train this way and strengthen the core while having a guard up, but first you have to get the alignment down...i.e using a standard hikite structure, you get a feel for lining up your core/body.

That said... I've found one of the strongest structures for projecting my mass through my opponent while using Oi zuke is indeed the standard hikite method.

And always .. I'm not talking in absolutes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah the power generation thing was always a bit iffy (the argument being that rotation around the central 'Y' axis not actually translating into forward linear momentum).

I’m not a karate guy and don’t know what Hikite is, but from the discussion so far I believe it is in reference to the withdrawing hand pulled to the waist, during a punch. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I don’t mean to derail the thread, but wanted to comment on the above bit, as this is exactly what we train in the system that I study. We constantly rotate in this way and it is extremely effective in developing power for a wide variety of strikes that can come off the central rotation. For me, in my experience, I haven’t seen anything better.

I think different systems use different methods to develop their power. I suspect that often they use the same underlying principle, but it may manifest in very different ways. A lot of this depends on what influences and sources if inspiration were available to those who founded and developed the method in the past.

At any rate, it’s interesting stuff and in my opinion, the specifics of the training methods are what distinguish one system from another, more so than specific techniques in most cases. We all have a punch in our arsenal. What distinguishes each of us in terms of the system we train is how we went about developing that punch to make it powerful and useful.

 

[_Simon_]

Agreed Simon..
I'm sure will get some interesting views and thoughts.

Yes the Y axis theory of Hikite never quite satisfied my thought process as to why or if .. Think there is some validity, boxer do it too. So IMO it's part of the equation. That said ... stable body structures/alignment to drive your mass is a key ingredient to my karate.

We consist of short fiber muscles that are for fast actions and reflexive actions, and long fiber muscles that are for stability and strength. The long fiber muscles... are what keep us erect all day... think about it.. few muscles are strong enough for us to be using all day. These long fiber muscles most of the time... we are unaware we are using them. ( till you get old, like me) ligaments and tendons attach to these short and fast twitch muscles. Few ways to strengthen the ligaments, tendons and long fiber muscles its hard to build them up with weight training, one has to target the muscle complex specifically and often times weights get in the way.

Core strength (one hears physical therapists talk about it all the time)

A great internal exercise to develop a stable body structure for OI zuki that I use.

In a hachiji dachi: I'll extend my migi zuki (right fist) to shoulder height. (jodan) approach a wall but stop about a foot away. Then lean against the wall, supported only by my migi zuki (usually contact with the wall is by the index and middle knuckles only) Then I take my left fist and perform Hikite to my left hip... focusing on pushing my core to the wall while keeping my torso behind the right fist. One can really feel the body alignment take root.

There I'll stand till I get tired, then switch sides.. the muscles that expire are not the one's you would think... it's the long fiber muscles that your strengthening.

If you take your left arm and bring it up to your chest or over by your left ear as if like your using a guard... you will notice your core wants to move towards the wall .. its because you have broke the connection between the torso and the shoulders hence weakened the structure. That is not to say one can't train this way and strengthen the core while having a guard up, but first you have to get the alignment down...i.e using a standard hikite structure, you get a feel for lining up your core/body.

That said... I've found one of the strongest structures for projecting my mass through my opponent while using Oi zuke is indeed the standard hikite method.

And always .. I'm not talking in absolutes.

Yes well said, and loved that exercise, I'll be sure to try that out!

 

[_Simon_]

I’m not a karate guy and don’t know what Hikite is, but from the discussion so far I believe it is in reference to the withdrawing hand pulled to the waist, during a punch. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I don’t mean to derail the thread, but wanted to comment on the above bit, as this is exactly what we train in the system that I study. We constantly rotate in this way and it is extremely effective in developing power for a wide variety of strikes that can come off the central rotation. For me, in my experience, I haven’t seen anything better.

I think different systems use different methods to develop their power. I suspect that often they use the same underlying principle, but it may manifest in very different ways. A lot of this depends on what influences and sources if inspiration were available to those who founded and developed the method in the past.

At any rate, it’s interesting stuff and in my opinion, the specifics of the training methods are what distinguish one system from another, more so than specific techniques in most cases. We all have a punch in our arsenal. What distinguishes each of us in terms of the system we train is how we went about developing that punch to make it powerful and useful.

Oh for sure, well said. And ah yes I was just saying what people argue, I actually think it has validity, my bad hehe.

I can sort of see what they mean in a way... that rotational energy is best served for rotational movements (eg a hook punch), whereas the actual axis for the punch should be at the front hip point. So instead of the pivot point being dead centre (so the body rotates around that), it is at the hip so it's more like a open/close door motion. That way the power is being driven FORWARD rather than circular.

I get that argument, but I still personally think rotating on the centre has validity too. Even the slingshot effect can be derived from it, although you can of course use that slingshot with the open/close method.

Yes you're right there are so many different ways of projecting power in different systems, I like hearing about all the other stylist's ways of doing it

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh for sure, well said. And ah yes I was just saying what people argue, I actually think it has validity, my bad hehe.

I can sort of see what they mean in a way... that rotational energy is best served for rotational movements (eg a hook punch), whereas the actual axis for the punch should be at the front hip point. So instead of the pivot point being dead centre (so the body rotates around that), it is at the hip so it's more like a open/close door motion. That way the power is being driven FORWARD rather than circular.

I get that argument, but I still personally think rotating on the centre has validity too. Even the slingshot effect can be derived from it, although you can of course use that slingshot with the open/close method.

Yes you're right there are so many different ways of projecting power in different systems, I like hearing about all the other stylist's ways of doing it

Yes, what you are describing is also a valid approach. I think another important point is that what you do in your training be consistent. Don’t try to incorporate every method of power generation that there is. Your system ought to favor a methodology, so stick with that because the system ought to be constructed to work within the parameters of that method. But the consistency is important so that when you go to deliver a punch or whatever technique, your body automatically engages that foundational method. If youve been jumping back and forth between methods from several different systems, you can create confusion for yourself, your body never decides which power method to engage. You stall and hesitate and ultimately deliver a poor punch. You only need one solid method to deliver a strong punch. You don’t need five different methods to deliver the same punch.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Hikite, pulling hand, does appear to be a chambering of the "passive" hand during a strike with the other. Long ago we called it the "reaction hand" and explained it as adding the power of the retreating hand thru the shoulders and into the attacking hand - the harder one hand comes back, the harder the other one will go out. I feel this is a valid way to produce a power strike. The secondary explanation is that is could be used to pull the opponent into the oncoming punch.

But now that the essence of the original Okinawan style is better understood as not just a striking art, but a grabbing-striking art, it is seen that the grabbing facet of hikite is the primary one, with power generation a secondary (though beneficial) side effect. I put "passive hand" in quotes in my first sentence since the returning hand is not passive at all. It is very active in control of the opponent, the main purpose of hikite.

Yes, you generate reaction power and pulling the opponent into the punch also aids in the head-on collision impact power. But it also immobilizes and controls the opponent's arm. It manipulates the arm by rotating it during the pull to set up locks and breaks, and can be used to pull the opponent off balance.

Hikite, and the associated findi (changing hand) are integral concepts to the Okinawan fighting systems. As Paul said, there is a lot to it.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Interesting commentary so far on hikite. I agree with much that has already been said and will only add that I have recently noticed how hikite, if down properly, can affect the final outcome of the blow. Although it has often been said by many a Sensei, I had a rare opportunity to see an example of hikite making a difference, imho. I had entered into a tamashewari tournament and noticed that the people that were not necessarily the largest but employed good technique were often more successful at breaking their boards than the people that just relied solely on brute strength. It was probably the most apparent when it came to the shuto strike. Using the rotation around the axis and combined with the downward momentum of the strike made for a successful break however I think it had more to do with the hikite allowing you to harness the power of your entire body (getting the muscle groups on both sides of your body to cooperate). This observation is now leading me down the rabbit hole to find other ways I can use this information to improve all my techniques.

If there is a camp that is against hikite as power generation I would love to hear the reasoning behind it.

The rabbit hole has also led me to thinking about hikite in grappling scenarios and how that affects Kazushi. Very interesting topic.

 

[Flying Crane]

...It was probably the most apparent when it came to the shuto strike. Using the rotation around the axis and combined with the downward momentum of the strike made for a successful break however I think it had more to do with the hikite allowing you to harness the power of your entire body (getting the muscle groups on both sides of your body to cooperate). This observation is now leading me down the rabbit hole to find other ways I can use this information to improve all my techniques.

...

The rabbit hole has also led me to thinking about hikite in grappling scenarios and how that affects Kazushi. Very interesting topic.

As my system subscribes heavily to the “rotate around the central axis” approach, I will say that it relies on bracing and pushing with the legs to power the rotation and keep the foundation stable. That is where the power comes from and I personally would not describe it as engaging the muscle groups on both sides of the body. I am sure that is part of it, but not what comes immediately to mind when I think about the execution of the methodology. There is a pulling back on the “off” side as the striking side rotates forward. In Chinese martial arts, often it is said “go left to go right, go back to go forward”. We are doing both at the same time, with a right punch using this method. We pull and rotate back on the left, to drive a punch forward on the right. We think more about the withdrawing hand than the striking hand, because this emphasizes the rotation more on the subconscious level and typically connects the strike better to that rotation. The striking hand then kind of “just happens” although that is an over simplification.

Regarding grappling, I do believe this could be very effective in the unbalancing and throwing down of an opponent. I’ve had a small amount of grappling training, before I had a solid understanding of the rotation method, so I wasn’t able to experiment with it at the time. I am certainly no authority on grappling, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I believe this could work well.

I recall one day in class, we were discussing the rotation method. In our system, we say, “if you understand the rotation, you can do a thousand things (meaning: anything you want)”. Sifu did a very quick demonstration to make his point. He had the senior student grab him in a bear-hug from behind. His message was not “this is how you defend against a bear-hug,” but rather just to show an example of the leverage inherent in the method. He dug in his feet and pushed into the rotation, and the student was uprooted and dragged over sifu’s thigh, off-balanced and would have fallen if Sifu hadn’t aborted the movement before it went that far. It was an interesting sight to see. Sifu was near 80 at the time and stands probably 5’4”, and weighs maybe 110 pounds.

 

[Buka]

In our system Hitake is done internally, and does not involve the hand.

I would imagine either way, and probably other ways, are just fine.

 

[isshinryuronin]

led me to thinking about hikite in grappling scenarios and how that affects Kazushi. Very interesting topic.

Yes, this is a main function of hikite. It is effective in breaking the opponent's balance/structure (kazushi) by pulling him forward, beyond his stance. Pulling his arm down, jerking his body down as well, causes his head to lower as well as snapping it back, exposing the throat. Pulling the arm up gets his weight up off his feet and stretches the ribcage, making it more vulnerable to a strike. Employing hikite whenever possible makes all your other techniques more effective and easier to land, not to mention making it very difficult for the opponent to counter.

 

[_Simon_]

however I think it had more to do with the hikite allowing you to harness the power of your entire body (getting the muscle groups on both sides of your body to cooperate).

Yes, this! I think it really teaches a synchronisation and a sort of unity and body connection.

It is quite a rabbit hole! Another way of looking at hikite, this is my rabbit hole @Yokozuna514

We pull and rotate back on the left, to drive a punch forward on the right. We think more about the withdrawing hand than the striking hand, because this emphasizes the rotation more on the subconscious level and typically connects the strike better to that rotation. The striking hand then kind of “just happens” although that is an over simplification.

This is awesome,... love how you worded that, and is something I've been exploring in my training. And a really great benefit of that, is because people can have quite alot of excessive tension in that striking hand/arm/shoulder, this hikite focus can help alleviate that and allow the strike to travel from a relaxed space and much faster.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yes, this! I think it really teaches a synchronisation and a sort of unity and body connection.

It is quite a rabbit hole! Another way of looking at hikite, this is my rabbit hole @Yokozuna514

This is awesome,... love how you worded that, and is something I've been exploring in my training. And a really great benefit of that, is because people can have quite alot of excessive tension in that striking hand/arm/shoulder, this hikite focus can help alleviate that and allow the strike to travel from a relaxed space and much faster.

Interesting how he is connecting the hikite with his abdomen and hip. Will have to play around with that to see how that affects things for me. The one thing I noticed that jumped out at me was how low his hand was for his hikite and how he is suggesting to curl his hand up a little to keep it inline with the punch. It is more than likely a style difference but as you know we hold our hikite higher so that the wrist and forearm are in line with the strike. May have to play around with that as well.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yes, this is a main function of hikite. It is effective in breaking the opponent's balance/structure (kazushi) by pulling him forward, beyond his stance. Pulling his arm down, jerking his body down as well, causes his head to lower as well as snapping it back, exposing the throat. Pulling the arm up gets his weight up off his feet and stretches the ribcage, making it more vulnerable to a strike. Employing hikite whenever possible makes all your other techniques more effective and easier to land, not to mention making it very difficult for the opponent to counter.

Osu, We tended to focus more on Sabaki concepts rather than Kazushi as our practice revolved more along the sport side where grabbing is a no no. We are going to explore more applications that are not sport oriented per se so these types of concepts fit right in that alley. Looking forward to seeing where this rabbit hole will take me so thanks for the input.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, this! I think it really teaches a synchronisation and a sort of unity and body connection.

It is quite a rabbit hole! Another way of looking at hikite, this is my rabbit hole @Yokozuna514

This is awesome,... love how you worded that, and is something I've been exploring in my training. And a really great benefit of that, is because people can have quite alot of excessive tension in that striking hand/arm/shoulder, this hikite focus can help alleviate that and allow the strike to travel from a relaxed space and much faster.

Interesting video. He shows that as he withdraws, he brings it through the center abdominal area and mentions that it guards that area. I find that we capitalize on the same thing. As our body rotates, one arm punches out and the other is withdrawing, two actions are done on one rotation. We rotate quite a lot farther, ending with the torso turned fully sideways. We push with the feet and grind the feet on the ground (shoes required for our training) to turn to 45 degrees from center, on the punching side. So going from a left to a right punch, our feet turn a full 90 degrees and the withdrawing hand is pulled until it extends fully backwards. If you draw a line from the withdrawn hand up the arm and through the shoulders, then down the punching arm, it should be a straight line from the back to forward.

As skill is developed and in actual use, this movement all becomes smaller and more subtle. The big movement is to train the body to move as a unit. When that skill is acquired, the same power can be accomplished with smaller, less exaggerated movement. In Chinese martial arts, another thing is said: move big to become small.

 

[_Simon_]

Interesting video. He shows that as he withdraws, he brings it through the center abdominal area and mentions that it guards that area. I find that we capitalize on the same thing. As our body rotates, one arm punches out and the other is withdrawing, two actions are done on one rotation. We rotate quite a lot farther, ending with the torso turned fully sideways. We push with the feet and grind the feet on the ground (shoes required for our training) to turn to 45 degrees from center, on the punching side. So going from a left to a right punch, our feet turn a full 90 degrees and the withdrawing hand is pulled until it extends fully backwards. If you draw a line from the withdrawn hand up the arm and through the shoulders, then down the punching arm, it should be a straight line from the back to forward.

As skill is developed and in actual use, this movement all becomes smaller and more subtle. The big movement is to train the body to move as a unit. When that skill is acquired, the same power can be accomplished with smaller, less exaggerated movement. In Chinese martial arts, another thing is said: move big to become small.

Ah wow that's really fascinating... yeah capitalising on that rotation.

And yes we also utilized the training movements bigger, getting the right body mechanics in that and working to compact it and training like that making it better in smaller movements (which can often be too subtle to start out with).

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is a "crazy" idea regarding hikite and chambering the nonleading fist on the hip in the "traditional" position with the fingers facing up. We all know the reason for this is to allow the hand to rotate to the fingers down position as we extend the punch...…But, what if it's not?

What if that position's importance is not related to the arm being extended, but in its being retracted? Look at that chambered position not from the perspective of punching away from the body, but from the perspective of hikite, coming back into the body.

Grab a partner's extended left wrist (on the inside or outside) with your right hand. Now pull him/her straight back into you without twisting your hand. It can certainly pull them off balance. Now, do the same thing, grabbing tight to prevent slipping, and twist your grabbing hand to the outside as you pull them in (like in chambering.) Careful not to pull too hard! Now, joints are being attacked and exposed for further damage. This also not only breaks his balance forward, but to the side as well.

So, which is most important - twisting the hand going out to give extra effect to a punch, or twisting the hand coming back to pull the opponent off balance multi-directionally and damage his joints.

Just looking at the most basic karate move from a new angle. I wonder which usage came first.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is a "crazy" idea regarding hikite and chambering the nonleading fist on the hip in the "traditional" position with the fingers facing up. We all know the reason for this is to allow the hand to rotate to the fingers down position as we extend the punch...…But, what if it's not?

What if that position's importance is not related to the arm being extended, but in its being retracted? Look at that chambered position not from the perspective of punching away from the body, but from the perspective of hikite, coming back into the body.

Grab a partner's extended left wrist (on the inside or outside) with your right hand. Now pull him/her straight back into you without twisting your hand. It can certainly pull them off balance. Now, do the same thing, grabbing tight to prevent slipping, and twist your grabbing hand to the outside as you pull them in (like in chambering.) Careful not to pull too hard! Now, joints are being attacked and exposed for further damage. This also not only breaks his balance forward, but to the side as well.

So, which is most important - twisting the hand going out to give extra effect to a punch, or twisting the hand coming back to pull the opponent off balance multi-directionally and damage his joints.

Just looking at the most basic karate move from a new angle. I wonder which usage came first.

Interesting and astute observation.

In our system we do not pull to the waist as in the Hikite. But as a point of example, neither do we twist the punch on the way out. We drive it out with palm down, the entire way. So I am far from convinced that the twist is necessary for a very powerful punch. That takes care of one half of your equation.

 

[_Simon_]

Here is a "crazy" idea regarding hikite and chambering the nonleading fist on the hip in the "traditional" position with the fingers facing up. We all know the reason for this is to allow the hand to rotate to the fingers down position as we extend the punch...…But, what if it's not?

What if that position's importance is not related to the arm being extended, but in its being retracted? Look at that chambered position not from the perspective of punching away from the body, but from the perspective of hikite, coming back into the body.

Grab a partner's extended left wrist (on the inside or outside) with your right hand. Now pull him/her straight back into you without twisting your hand. It can certainly pull them off balance. Now, do the same thing, grabbing tight to prevent slipping, and twist your grabbing hand to the outside as you pull them in (like in chambering.) Careful not to pull too hard! Now, joints are being attacked and exposed for further damage. This also not only breaks his balance forward, but to the side as well.

So, which is most important - twisting the hand going out to give extra effect to a punch, or twisting the hand coming back to pull the opponent off balance multi-directionally and damage his joints.

Just looking at the most basic karate move from a new angle. I wonder which usage came first.

Good point, I like it!

Also, just as a heads up everyone... I invented hikite. It's okay it's okaaaaay you can all use it I guess...