High Rank and Multiple Arts
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KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
Mike, you hit the nail on the head with your post!
When this thread first started,I thought it would be nice if I addressed it only because I do hold various ranks in various arts. I explained to the best of my ability and have been very active in the martial arts for many years. For some of you,far before you were even in the arts. In response to my honest answers, i was called evasive,elusive and distant about answers to this particular thread on this particular board.Questions were asked that I felt were off topic and there was no need to answer them. If that makes certain people's flags go up,then run it up the flagpole and see who salutes! I've offered to the original poster an opportunity to ask any questions because it's a prolonged process to detail out a 38 year career. With all due respect to all concerned,If you think that i'm typing it all out here you are mistaken or completely insane. If you are truly that desperate to find out all the myrid details of my illustrious & lenghty journey, well, in our modern technology,most celphone carriers have free weekend minutes,so,call and ask! To be quite frank, there really isn't anyone here on this board that I'm really losing any sleep over whether I answer questions on this or any other board. With all due respect again, you just aren't that important. If you are,then i've already contacted you personally because I deemed you that important to me as a friend and mutual aquaintance. When someone makes a rude comment or a snide remark, it's no big deal. I just "point and laugfh" because it's funny! So, don't be surprised if most of these people don't even bother responding...because to them, your opinion doesn't matter.
When someone does actually take the time to respond, no matter what their response, certain people flame them or act the "role of troll" and are shining examples of the old adage "No act of kindness goes unpunished". So, no wonder many people just lurk on these boards!
merry christmas and happy holidays!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
Someone once said to me, mastering an art takes a lifetime.
I can understand cross training. I can even understand earning some rank in what you cross train in.
But some people have 10, 20, 30 or more black belts. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
I challenge anyone who has that to step on a floor and demonstrate each and ever one of those arts that they hold rank in's entire curriculum from white to 1st black.
If you list a 6th in EPAK a 5th in Tracy and a 7th in another art, then you better know white-black 1st cold, in each of them. Otherwise, I call you a fraud.
I don't care if you're 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 or even 80. No one can master that many arts. If you could, you'd have been on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and the military would be cloning you as a Super Soldier. So, cut the ego fluffing.
If you can't show the material someone who studied that art soley would, then I don't think you should have a rank in that art. Period.
Now back to trying to screw with peoples heads in TGD.
I can understand cross training. I can even understand earning some rank in what you cross train in.
But some people have 10, 20, 30 or more black belts. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
I challenge anyone who has that to step on a floor and demonstrate each and ever one of those arts that they hold rank in's entire curriculum from white to 1st black.
If you list a 6th in EPAK a 5th in Tracy and a 7th in another art, then you better know white-black 1st cold, in each of them. Otherwise, I call you a fraud.
I don't care if you're 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 or even 80. No one can master that many arts. If you could, you'd have been on the cover of Sports Illustrated, and the military would be cloning you as a Super Soldier. So, cut the ego fluffing.
If you can't show the material someone who studied that art soley would, then I don't think you should have a rank in that art. Period.
Now back to trying to screw with peoples heads in TGD.
I have been in one of these types of treads in the past and I know exactly how hard it is to respond to people when 6 people ask you a question and even if they all ask the same thing they get upset if you don't address them specifically. It is also had to wade through a thread to answer people if there are several tangent threads starting as well, it makes it very difficult to answer people and follow along, it also et very tiring and you eventualy say screw it. Paring of the thread may allow the original topic to be worked on and flourish and those that are intent in bashing Mr. Rebelo can put their posts in another thread so that the serious dicussion can still take place.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #205
Hey Joe,
I'm home during the day, so anytime you want to chat, I'd be more than happy to give you a call. Shoot me a PM with your number. Really though, all I had was 2 questions. The first: is it possible to achieve something like this, while at the same time keeping things legit? Second, how long did it take you to do all this? See this is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that you'd rather say all this 1 on 1, that way, when the person comes back to set the record straight on the forum, it'll be their words, not yours that are seen. Its easy to come back and claim that the person posting did not speak the truth. Its basically a CYA type of thing. If you say it, now you and only you are responsible for what you post.
As for losing sleep...Im not losing any either.
I too point and laugh at how direct questions can't or won't be answered, but hey, thats on you my friend, not me. As far as lurking goes...Joe, this forum is free and open for anyone to post. Anyone is entitle to join Martial Talk. Thing is Joe, when people post, its only natural for others to ask questions. And its only natural to get an answer. I'm sorry, but I like to ask questions, and if I have one, I'm going to ask it.
Some think that because they talk a big game or flash fancy things, that people should automatically take that as the answer and not question or argue. Like I've said, sometimes silence speaks louder than the words themselves. Oh, BTW, despite what I say on here, I still plan on setting up a time to come up to MA to train. And dinner and drinks (whatever those drinks may be) are still on me.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Safe and Happy New Year.
Mike
OP
- Thread Starter
- #206
As Danjo said in an earlier post, this thread is not about Joe, although its taking that turn now. As I've said, I didn't start it to specifically talk about Joe, but instead high rank/mult arts in general. Joe happens to be one that has both, so I'm just simply asking a few questions. Do you honestly feel that questions will be answered? Maybe, maybe not, but I will suggest a thread split.
Mike
Ray
Master Black Belt
Hell, I don't care what anyone calls themselves or what rank they have. All I know is that KenpoJoe has taught me quite a bit that I didn't know - and I hope to have the opportunity to learn more from him.
You might as well start a thread saying that no one could have invented calculus since most people could not have. However, two people different people did almost simultaneously.
(Now I'm not saying that Mr. Rebelo is the intellectual equal of Newton -- just that some people have accomplished more than others. Some have not accomplished as much because they don't have the opportunities; some have not accomplished as much because they don't have the innate ability to; some because they play x-box all night long).
Bottom line is: why bother worrying about what rank or knowledge someone else claims? Spend more time gathering the knowledge and skills that we don't have.
This is a good test, I think. For those FMAs that don't have anyos (kata) and focus on (only) stick, machete (bolo), and knife (rather than having different techniques for specific types of swords, etc.)--and this covers a lot of Filipino arts--so many of the techniques are so similar that if you are good at one you could just about learn the other system in a day. The other system will have a couple of different drills--a 4-count where you have a 3-count--a few new locks, but mostly they will emphasize different things that you already know. They'll fight closer-in or further-out, do more straight-in footwork and less triangular footwork, drill out of hubud more than abecedario, but things will overall be easy to grasp. When I study these arts I generally know every specific move, just not the combos and strategies. If shown the combo, I can generally perform the technique pretty well very quickly.
BUT...although for several of these arts I have been walked through most of the curriculum, I could never hope to remember and show them. What that means is that I'm still a Modern Arnis player who can mimic moves from otehr arts but do not fight as they do--not at their range, with their signature moves and strategies, with their assumptions of what's likely to happen, and so on. I'm an arnisador in an eskrimador's clothing when I do that. When I go to a Dekiti Tirsia Siradas seminar, I'm usually complimented on any technique I do. But when we ramp up the speed, my footwork is very different from theirs, as is my live-hand usage (as I'm a stick-jockey and they treat the stick as a sword).
If you teach one of these very similar FMA styles then you'd be able to show me your curriculum and see me demonstrate it to 1st black proficiency in a day, or maybe a week if you have intricate sinawalis. But I'll never move/think/fight/react like someone from your style. So what does the belt mean in that case?
To my mind, it's like the fact that a physics professor could teach a calculus class on any given day, but a physicist and a mathematician are still two different types of specialties.
Time for a new thread with a poll: "How many black belts do you have?" I've been doing this since the late 1970s and I just earned my second black belt this year...and it's in JKD as an adjunct to my arnis.
Perpetual White Belt
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This could also be said of Okinawa karate. Most systems have the basic katas (Pinan, Naihanchi, Passai, Gojushiho, Kusanku) with only minor differences in the kata(such as cat stances instead of back for instance), so if you're good at your art you should be able to go through and learn the kata in a similar art in a shorter amount of time.
Brother, you have told the absolute truth here. There's nothing a person can add to that and nothing that an honest man could argue with.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Exactly. In that case, the belt means nothing. It means that high rank in another form isn't something you deserve if you can't move/think/fight/react like someone from that art.
Excellent point.
As a case in point, I count this individual as a Grandmaster of one art and a Master of 13 others from this ad. His site makes the claim a bit less strongly.
I've met several of his students at seminars (and him, briefly). They're nice and also skilled, and can do Ryukyu Kempo, Small Circle JJ, and Modern Arnis to varying degrees of skill, with an emphasis on the former. But...he himself seems to have mastered a lot of arts before creating his own system(s).
I've met several of his students at seminars (and him, briefly). They're nice and also skilled, and can do Ryukyu Kempo, Small Circle JJ, and Modern Arnis to varying degrees of skill, with an emphasis on the former. But...he himself seems to have mastered a lot of arts before creating his own system(s).
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
People place too much meaning on rank. 8th degree black in one style does not equate to the same level of proficiency of 8th-dan in another.
Some systems are simpler to learn than others.
I'm more interested in how long a person has been studying a style and how many other reputable people are willing to stand behind the person's skills.
In KenpoJoe's example, he has some rank from the Nindo-ryu folk. I know that they are their own system and quite possibly give out high ranks rather frequently. So be it. There are people nearing 10th-dan in some Japanese arts I have meet who are under 40 years of age. Sadly, we can't look at high rank as high rank any more.
Some systems are simpler to learn than others.
I'm more interested in how long a person has been studying a style and how many other reputable people are willing to stand behind the person's skills.
In KenpoJoe's example, he has some rank from the Nindo-ryu folk. I know that they are their own system and quite possibly give out high ranks rather frequently. So be it. There are people nearing 10th-dan in some Japanese arts I have meet who are under 40 years of age. Sadly, we can't look at high rank as high rank any more.
I'd like to nominate this post for MT's "Understatement of the Year" award. :lol:
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
Danjo
Master Black Belt
So this thread seems to have come to the point where we can draw a couple of conclusions: 1) if the arts are virtually the same, then having a cross rank in them is no biggie to achieve 2) If they are not the same, it is highly unlikely that a person could legitimately get to high rank in very many of them.
Let's look at it this way. If someone told me that they were an expert in using a 3/4 inch Snap-on wrench, then I would assume that they would be equally good at using a 3/4 inch Stanley, or Craftsman wrench as well because the only real difference would be the name and a slight cosmetic difference, but it's still the same tool. If their resume' listed their expertise in all three brands of wrench, I might questin the need to do that or conclude that they were just trying to impress me with more words, but I would accept the claim as basically true.
However, if they said to me that they had trained to expertise with a chainsaw and therfore they should also be considered an expert in the use of a Keyhole saw, hacksaw, backsaw, bandsaw and cross cut saw, then I would begin to question their rationale. Just because they are all "saws" and they all have the function of "Cutting" doesn't make them the same tool, nor does the skill required for one equal the skill required for the other.
So, if all the listed high ranks are in arts that are no more different than the wrenches listed above are from each other, then no problem. If it's just a matter of a different name and a slight cosmetic difference, then who cares? Just go ahead and list those different names for the same thing. If that's what's really being said, then no problem.
Let's look at it this way. If someone told me that they were an expert in using a 3/4 inch Snap-on wrench, then I would assume that they would be equally good at using a 3/4 inch Stanley, or Craftsman wrench as well because the only real difference would be the name and a slight cosmetic difference, but it's still the same tool. If their resume' listed their expertise in all three brands of wrench, I might questin the need to do that or conclude that they were just trying to impress me with more words, but I would accept the claim as basically true.
However, if they said to me that they had trained to expertise with a chainsaw and therfore they should also be considered an expert in the use of a Keyhole saw, hacksaw, backsaw, bandsaw and cross cut saw, then I would begin to question their rationale. Just because they are all "saws" and they all have the function of "Cutting" doesn't make them the same tool, nor does the skill required for one equal the skill required for the other.
So, if all the listed high ranks are in arts that are no more different than the wrenches listed above are from each other, then no problem. If it's just a matter of a different name and a slight cosmetic difference, then who cares? Just go ahead and list those different names for the same thing. If that's what's really being said, then no problem.
LawDog
Master Black Belt
I agree with Danjo and a few others in certain area's.
Ex. - many systems have a high level of jujitsu / judo engrained into their material and other systems do not. If you are in a system that does not have a high level of jujitsu / judo than your ability to perform the material within a system that does would be rather low.
Even in Kenpo / Kempo there is a vast difference on the amount of varing types of material that has been engrained into these various systems.
So it is my opinon that a persons ability to control his / her body and their understanding of tacticle applications might be the same but their ability to perform the material from another system might not be.
This compairison could go on and on.
Bottom line, if a person can do it properly and on a high level then ok. If not then --.
:asian:
Ex. - many systems have a high level of jujitsu / judo engrained into their material and other systems do not. If you are in a system that does not have a high level of jujitsu / judo than your ability to perform the material within a system that does would be rather low.
Even in Kenpo / Kempo there is a vast difference on the amount of varing types of material that has been engrained into these various systems.
So it is my opinon that a persons ability to control his / her body and their understanding of tacticle applications might be the same but their ability to perform the material from another system might not be.
This compairison could go on and on.
Bottom line, if a person can do it properly and on a high level then ok. If not then --.
:asian:
Gentle Fist
Master Black Belt
Very well said!!!
That's a very good analogy. You can push it a long way before you've pushed it too far.
A good blacksmith can look at a good carpenter and recognize skill. That doesn't make the carpenter a blacksmith even though they both use hammers, files and vises. If a traditional Japanese carpenter and an Amish carpenter traded workshops each could be productive; they use a number of the same tools and work with wood. But that doesn't mean that they are the same or that they could be up to speed the next day. A lot of the tools are not the same. The style of furniture or buildings they construct is very different.
When a style awards rank to someone it is saying "He is up to our standards. If he has this rank he is as good as anyone else with the same title. All of us are willing to stake our reputations and good names on it." If he can't perform the curriculum or do what other high-ranking practitioners can do (and vice versa) it's a direct reflection on everyone in the system. You can't say "We didn't pinky-swear, so we can do a take back." You give it, you stand behind it.
If Kenpo is Kenpo is Kenpo high ranks in multiple styles are meaningless exercises in multiplying by one or adding zeros. If it's not all the same or close enough as makes no difference, then sixth and seventh degree black belts should take more than a year or two. One way looks like pure ego-stroking. The other way looks cheap.
I take slight exception to this. Styles don't award rank; instructors, promotion boards, grandmasters, or high mucketymucks award rank.
Some award rank stingily, others readily. Some award rank to some people on one basis, and others on another.
The bottom line is that the meaning of the rank only can be judged by looking at others in that system, and by looking at that standard. I'll put my green belts up against brown belts or even black belts in some systems -- or in some schools within my system.
But, at the same time, at black belt and higher, there should be some commonality that can be compared. You can compare two masters degrees, even if they're not in the same academic discipline. You should be able to roughly compare two black belts, and have an idea that both are dan-ranked.
