Help me out Hapkido folks...

[jezr74]

I guess the problem I have with interpreting discussion on different type of techniques is I see everything on a scale, I never see things so black and white. The arm bar escape performed in the OP vs. SK Vs. using the leg. Sure I can see the difference in positioning, the flaws for optimal execution. Stephan's example looked a lot more solid to me, and the use of the leg to escape looked more effective. But I still think some things are feasible. I may chose to adopt one method over the other in training, or if a better one comes along later, move to what moves up the optimal scale.

But it's still common to find yourself on the end of a bad arm bar. The OP would work then?

 

[ballen0351]

I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?

 

[Raymond]

The technique in the OP will not work at all in my opinion.

Stephen Kesting is a world class BJJ instructor and his videos are always good. The difference in his video and OP is that Stephen is demonstrating and explaining Pressure and Posture. He escapes by removing the pressure and leverage possibilities from his opponent, and then using pressure to pin the leg so it can't just take its place back. He then moves his elbow to a safe location (away from the fulcrum). The OP doesn't demonstrate that because they don't understand it (which is fine, they have never been taught it).

Watch the third video from Tillis BJJ in this. Right away, the instructor starts talking about pressure! That's the key in any grappling art: pressure and posture. Outside of that, I personally don't care for that escape as it relies on a certain level of flexibility which doesn't apply to all students. I think the best escapes apply to all body types and fitness level for self defense. Then, once you start getting to higher levels of competition, a game especially tailored for your body can develop.

The Stephan Kesting comparison was a great one to post. Its like instructor Yates "saw" someone do that and then tried to figure it out himself from watching it once. Like if I saw someone do a round kick and went over, wailed on the heavy bag 100 times with no instruction, then went and taught other people how to do it. The only thing that instructor Yates DID do right was by sucking the elbow down, but he doesn't know what was right about it. When grappling, keeping your elbows from being separated from your body is a key fundamental. When that happens, your limbs can be exposed. Just like if you lift your elbow in striking, you're gonna get hit in the ribs. Elbows in is really a fundamental of stand up or ground fighting. But by drawing his elbow back down quickly, he is closing the gap of isolation on his limb. However, he's preoccupied with trying to strike the groin and reminding you he trains "for da streetz" as they say.

I commend the World Sin Moo Hapkido Federation for trying to introduce submission escapes for their students but they are going to do more harm than good with techniques like this. Good "anti grappling" or submission defense should start with fundamentals of pressure and posture to AVOID being subbed in the first place, and then escapes should come second. The learning hierarchy should be:

1. Survival posture
2. Escape

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I guess the problem I have with interpreting discussion on different type of techniques is I see everything on a scale, I never see things so black and white. The arm bar escape performed in the OP vs. SK Vs. using the leg. Sure I can see the difference in positioning, the flaws for optimal execution. Stephan's example looked a lot more solid to me, and the use of the leg to escape looked more effective. But I still think some things are feasible. I may chose to adopt one method over the other in training, or if a better one comes along later, move to what moves up the optimal scale.

But it's still common to find yourself on the end of a bad arm bar. The OP would work then?

Not really.

The "armbar" demonstrated in the original video wasn't just bad - it really wasn't even there at all. You could have that kid apply the "armbar" as shown to a completely untrained person and 9 times out of 10 the untrained guy would probably be able to escape without injury. (The 10th time would be where the untrained person panicked and did something klutzy to hurt himself.)

I agree with you in general on not judging everything in absolute terms. Most of the time it's better to have a suboptimal defense than no defense at all. Some of the videos that Hanzou has criticized in other threads I've been more forgiving of because they're at least a step in the right direction.

In this case the technique shown is not even wrong. It's as if I offered to show a defense against a karate style reverse punch and then my training partner fed me an "attack" which consisted of closing his eyes, spinning around, and waving his arms like Kermit the Frog.

BTW - the two videos you posted earlier both show legitimate defenses. I prefer the Stephen Kesting version and teach it myself, but the other one is valid.

 

[Raymond]

Gnarlie also had a very good point in his post. Stripping the leg that's over your neck and head is not easily done, and Mr. Yates just "pushing" it with his hand would not suffice. In the arm bar at that point, that leg is going to be pressuring down on top of you and will be VERY heavy. Just pushing it off with your one free arm is fighting strength with strength, which to me violates a near universal principle in Hapkido.

The difference in Mr. Kesting's video is that he defeats the leg using his WHOLE body, and that is something we can appreciate from a Hapkido stand point. Much like with various wrist lock throws and wrist escapes, we attack a small limb or joint with all of our weight, body and pressure. Mr. Kesting is defeating that leg with his bridge, using very powerful parts of his body against it.

 

[jezr74]

Is there anything salvageable form the OP? Is it possible to change the technique to make it more feasible? Aside from using a different technique altogether.

(Don't get me wrong, from first seeing this post and watching the vid, it was glaringly obvious to me that there were issues. But I did think the discussion was going to degenerate down a certain path, so apologies for my first post that was not helping.)

 

[Raymond]

Is there anything salvageable form the OP? Is it possible to change the technique to make it more feasible? Aside from using a different technique altogether.

(Don't get me wrong, from first seeing this post and watching the vid, it was glaringly obvious to me that there were issues. But I did think the discussion was going to degenerate down a certain path, so apologies for my first post that was not helping.)

Basically the OP video is how not to do the escape Stephen Kesting teaches in the vid that was posted. I'm not sure how to put it without sounding rude or insulting.

 

[Hanzou]

I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?

I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value.

It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.

Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.

 

[jezr74]

Basically the OP video is how not to do the escape Stephen Kesting teaches in the vid that was posted. I'm not sure how to put it without sounding rude or insulting.

Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.

One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?

 

[ballen0351]

I think it's less about caring and more about pure shock value.

It's shocking to see two high-ranking Hapkido black belts mess up a white belt/beginner level Judo/Bjj technique, and then think the fumbled technique was sound enough to put online for the world to see.

Im Still waiting for your amazing skills to be posted online but anyway why do you care. Why do you care what thee guys are doing? Your not shocked you have other reasons..........

Relax. This is just like a car accident and we've slowed down to point and gawk at the accident scene. Eventually we'll see everything there is to see and keep driving along.

Ahhh so it was posted to make fun of them yeah thats what I suspected

 

[Steve]

I dont understand why anyone cares that much. If your not a Hapkido guy then who cares what Hapkido guys are training in?

It's a discussion ballen. Why do you care so much about what other people care about?

 

[Steve]

Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.

One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?

You actually do get to a point where you can sense movement and anticipate where someone is likely to go next. I would guess it's similar to why WC guys do Chi Sao or Tai Chi guys do push hands.

As you develop this sensitivity through hours of mat time, you will begin to do things to encourage a particular response, which is where chaining techniques together comes into play. Simplest example is a push/push response. I push into you and you will intuitively push back. I want to pull you, so I push first.

 

[Raymond]

Don't worry about rude or insulting, I have no problem with people giving their opinion, I've learnt a lot from the people on this board. I just find if I don't ask the question I don't get the answer. This thread has been pretty informative IMO.

One thing I'll ask, what is it you use when in a ground situation to get a sense of whats coming? Even when I am in guard, I can go by what I see (normally a tangle of arms fighting for position) but are you feeling the weight distribution move to anticipate?

I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.

But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.

If I am in Guard top, then I want to pass, control, submit. There are various ways of passing the guard for a beginner like me. Over pass, under pass, stand up pass and so on.

If I am guard bottom, them my priorities will be to: sweep, submit, or escape to standing. I can do that in a few ways, I can create space to escape, or break down their posture to control for the sweep or submission.

With that out of the way, I'll dive into your question. If I am guard top, I know my opponent has to do one of two things: break my posture down or create space to free his hips and escape. Basically it then becomes a chess game (to use a tired old cliche). Example, if I have space I can go for an under pass, once I start my under pass I KNOW from understanding these basics that he then needs to make his leg heavy, so if I feel his leg heavy I can not resist it and let is slide down/drop off of me and go for the over pass. If my opponent is equally skilled, he'll know that I am waiting for this and so on.

I've been told before that a blue belt (2 years of training or so) and a black belt (10 years of training or so) will know the same "moves". Much like me and a world chess champion both know how the pieces "move". But the difference in the blue belt and the black belt will be how quickly their brains and bodies react to said moves and feel the pressures.

The priorities of position I can also apply to my Hapkido. If someone has a single wrist grip on me, I know their priorities will be to control me or punch me. So my priority will be to: Guard for the punch (if the hand cocks back in typically bully fashion) -> step to an angle to off balance and better avoid the blow -> and then to either A) escape the grip or B) trap it and move into a lock of some variety. This is just one scenario, but I pick it as it is something that is done from the white belt level and onward in Hapkido, and should be similarly trained across various organizations of the art.

While there are many variables and places for tweaks in both arts priorities, I think you will understand what I am trying to convey. As another Hapkido person, if you grab another Hapkido person's wrist, you both know what the other may potentially do so it will be a game of who can react, feint, etc the other person more effectively since you both know the same "moves".

I hope I didn't ramble and attempted to answer your question.

 

[ballen0351]

It's a discussion ballen.

It was not posted to be a discussion it was posted so people could "point and gawk". If it were posted by an actual Hapkido student seeking knowledge thats one thing. To post a topic to make fun of them is different. Its pretty self righteous of some here to basically say what hapkido is doing here is crap.

Why do you care so much about what other people care about?

Its a discussion Steve I was asking a question. Hey but great job add to the conversation two thumbs up big guy

 

[Steve]

It was not meant to be a discussion it was posted so people could "point and gawk". If it were posted by an actual Hapkido student seeking knowledge thats one thing. To post a topic to make fun of them is different.

Its a discussion Steve I was asking a question. Hey but great job add to the conversation two thumbs up big guy

And you're adding value to this thread in what way? Rather than continue to derail the thread, I encourage you to use the RTM function. That's what it's for.

 

[Steve]

I'm not totally qualified to answer the second question, as I admit I am not an expert grappler, and have just two years in submission wrestling.

But basically, the hierarchy of priorities if starting from a standing situation would be: close the distance -> clinch -> takedown -> pass the guard -> control -> submit.

If I am in Guard top, then I want to pass, control, submit. There are various ways of passing the guard for a beginner like me. Over pass, under pass, stand up pass and so on.

If I am guard bottom, them my priorities will be to: sweep, submit, or escape to standing. I can do that in a few ways, I can create space to escape, or break down their posture to control for the sweep or submission.

With that out of the way, I'll dive into your question. If I am guard top, I know my opponent has to do one of two things: break my posture down or create space to free his hips and escape. Basically it then becomes a chess game (to use a tired old cliche). Example, if I have space I can go for an under pass, once I start my under pass I KNOW from understanding these basics that he then needs to make his leg heavy, so if I feel his leg heavy I can not resist it and let is slide down/drop off of me and go for the over pass. If my opponent is equally skilled, he'll know that I am waiting for this and so on.

I've been told before that a blue belt (2 years of training or so) and a black belt (10 years of training or so) will know the same "moves". Much like me and a world chess champion both know how the pieces "move". But the difference in the blue belt and the black belt will be how quickly their brains and bodies react to said moves and feel the pressures.

The priorities of position I can also apply to my Hapkido. If someone has a single wrist grip on me, I know their priorities will be to control me or punch me. So my priority will be to: Guard for the punch (if the hand cocks back in typically bully fashion) -> step to an angle to off balance and better avoid the blow -> and then to either A) escape the grip or B) trap it and move into a lock of some variety. This is just one scenario, but I pick it as it is something that is done from the white belt level and onward in Hapkido, and should be similarly trained across various organizations of the art.

While there are many variables and places for tweaks in both arts priorities, I think you will understand what I am trying to convey. As another Hapkido person, if you grab another Hapkido person's wrist, you both know what the other may potentially do so it will be a game of who can react, feint, etc the other person more effectively since you both know the same "moves".

I hope I didn't ramble and attempted to answer your question.

This is an excellent post, Raymond. I agree completely. I will also add that this is where collaboration can really help. If a Hapkido guy wants to incorporate things like this into his training, crosstraining with an experienced grappler can really help. With just two years experience, Raymond nails it. Don't have to be an expert to understand the fundamentals. And while a Hapkido guy with two years may not be able to take out a BJJ black belt on the ground, does he have to? I think we all agree that he does not. A basic level of competence in ground fighting doesn't take forever and won't negate the great things about any other art.

 

[ballen0351]

And you're adding value to this thread in what way? Rather than continue to derail the thread, I encourage you to use the RTM function. That's what it's for.

I encourage you to use the Ignore function thats what its for YOur the one that showed up to derail this thread not me

 

[Raymond]

This is an excellent post, Raymond. I agree completely. I will also add that this is where collaboration can really help. If a Hapkido guy wants to incorporate things like this into his training, crosstraining with an experienced grappler can really help. With just two years experience, Raymond nails it. Don't have to be an expert to understand the fundamentals. And while a Hapkido guy with two years may not be able to take out a BJJ black belt on the ground, does he have to? I think we all agree that he does not. A basic level of competence in ground fighting doesn't take forever and won't negate the great things about any other art.

Thank you! I enjoy doing submission grappling/no-gi BJJ or whatever you want to call it (I don't train in gi BJJ so I have no rank technically ) while also training in Hapkido (not affiliated to any organization). I feel that for me as a martial artist and on my martial journey, they compliment each other in both technical, and non technical ways. Each gives me something the other doesn't. Using a technical example, the few times I've rolled with people in the gi in BJJ as a white belt, all of my grip breaks came from HKD. When I wrist lock someone, all the principles I use come from HKD.

Doing a combat sport feeds the part of me that wants to be part of competition, and doing Hapkido gives me the sense of belonging and tradition that come with a "traditional" art. I know HKD is not "historically" that old but I mean having an art with a history, rank, and non physical aspects it develops. All things can exist in harmony if we try.

 

[Steve]

I encourage you to use the Ignore function thats what its for YOur the one that showed up to derail this thread not me

Thanks for the reminder about that ignore function. Good point.

So, what were your thoughts on the topic of the thread again?

 

[ballen0351]

So, what were your thoughts on the topic of the thread again?

My thoughts are its none of our business what Hapkido guys are doing unless we study Hapkido. Now if a Hapkido practitioner came and asked a question about a technique working thats one thing, a guy that isnt Hapkido posting a vid to make fun of well thats different. In reality the chances of ever needing to escape from an arm bar in a self defense situation is pretty much slim to none. Not a lot of street fights end in arm bars. Im sure there are plenty of Hapkido practitioners that study other arts to include BJJ or Judo or wrestling so in MY opinion its there jobs to police their own so to speak if someone is teaching bad Hapkido techniques its not ours. Its not Hanz's job to post clips so he can "point and gawk" at them.