Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Azulx, May 24, 2018.
Sorry I meant Do San instead of Dan Gun, my mistake.
Looking at it from my TKD perspective, her arm movements, blocks and punches have little follow through. It looks as though they ramp down slowly to a stop instead of finishing with power. The most glaring thing for me is zero use of the hips. Especially in her blocks and punches, they are very segmented isolating use of only the respective arm instead of using the whole body. In her front stances there is little bend of the front knee and looks unstable. I can see her upper body "wave" at times. There is no change of speed in the first form but and I know this is a style thing but is it practical? Moves should ebb and tide and change speed to fit the attack or block. It does have a very traditional flavor assuming that is the way she has been taught.
I teach this slightly different as a defense against a hand shake that the person won't let go of. Back in the day when men would shake hands with firms grips and occasionally someone would try and out muscle you and crush your grip. I know that time is long past so historically I think the application fits The hand shake being the spear hand, by twisting the spear hand downward it bends the opponent's wrist and bends his elbow shoulder everything towards the outside. Spinning around into a horse stance allows you to hit with the elbow first since the opponent is held in place by the wrist lock. However if he released the wrist lock and went to straighten up the hammer fist could get him.
Regardless I realize I've changed the form from a turn into a forward stance and back fist into a horse stance and hammer fist. However I have kept to similar motions in the form.
I teach this move a little different too. We do this more as a X block and a double grab. Now the application could be a spread block like you suggest. In fact I think the first way I had seen an application for the combination was in one of the Pinan kata as a spread block but the person set his weight back into a back stance as his arms came up and then spread apart. By shifting backwards it tended to pull the persons upper body forward hollowing out their middle and the rear leg kick came from there. As using it as an X block and then grab, I have the person punch while the defender steps back into a front stance and executes the X block (shoving the punch upwards while moving the target (the head) backwards) then one hand grabs the punch and pulls it off to a side to clear the body and front kick and punch. Then let go and punch with the 2nd hand.
The same defense can be used against a over head weapon defense such as a stick if the person is at the distance where they are properly going to hit me with a stick then I need to move in to jam or block on the arm. So instead of stepping back as in the punch defense I step in towards the person under the over head swing as in the kata. From there one hand grabs and controls the weapon hand (twisting it) while off balancing him and then kicking him and following up with the punch.
Speaking of take downs, one of my favorites is one that I teach from this form as the back hand chop at the end. I tie our knife hand block execution action to the block, check and strike motion from Modern Arnis and apply it to the form Do San. So as a person punches you step to the side pass the punch on the outside (this is the chamber action of the back hand chop) grab with the other hand to pull him forward and lock the arm against the chest as the back hand chop comes out to turn the face and upper body bending them backwards behind you.
I believe partner drills really help the students start to take a more appreciative view of their forms.
I agree that maybe Tiger Rock and ATA are the largest American TKD organizations in the US, actually I have no idea if they are or aren't. To be honest I believe if you want to see what American TKD looks like go to any local open tournament and you will see many diverse schools all doing American TKD. Doing the same or similar forms different ways. That's the true American TKD.
I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that kata techniques are meant for sparring and I believe a person will hold themselves back by thinking these techniques must be used in sparring. Granted many kata were primarily shown in books in the context of sparring or dueling but I don't believe that is the original context for the techniques. Since Korean TKD came from or was influenced by Japanese karate which came from Okinawa, and China, if you look at the context of how karate was taught and trained in Japan it developed into more of a sparring method in the 30-40's. However in the 1900'still it was transplanted to Japan karate was taught through kata and application as a fighting art. So the grappling, throws, eye gouges, knees etc. etc. were removed for sparring but still remained in kata. Seeing that Gen Choi and others took Japanese kata and rearranged them to create new Korean forms those techniques and applications still remain (although now more mixed up). So to say you need to do these techniques in a free sparring situation I think is wrong. Controlled self defense drills yes but free sparring I disagree.
I mean in Chug Mu you have a jump 360 move that is taught as "I'm looking around to cover my surroundings" (seriously I was told this once), or maybe it's "I want to freak my opponent out in front of me so I'll do a crazy Monty Python move" but why would you try and pull that off in sparring? Or the eye gouge slam the head into the knee and turn to engage someone behind you in sparring. Same goes for the arcing motion with the foot work as trying to apply it as a lock knee take down or a set up to a throw, I think the possibility of injuring your training partner is to great. You can train that stuff on two man drills (i.e.applications of forms) and dueling with your sparring partner.
I really appreciate all this info. My student is actually 5 geup/kyu. I’m a 2nd Dan. There is a video of me performing these forms as well in the members in motion section. I would love your feedback as well.
Everyone teaches a bit differently and they are all "correct."
The one small thing I would ask for is to lead with the eyes. The best forms people I've seen would make you see the opponent in front of them.
Looked like a kid doing a form to me. Looked pretty good. I hope she stays with it.
I hope you do as well, Azulx.
There's no reason not to do grappling, throws, or knees during sparring. Eye gouges are trickier. There are ways to simulate them in sparring, but you need training partners you can really trust for safety so I usually don't bother.
The only way I've found to do any sort of eye attacks safely in sparring is with face shields (on sparring helmets) or well-fitted goggles. Enough effort that I rarely bother - more for a change of pace than anything else.
All I can think of is the 3 Stooges. And their defense against the eye poke
3 Stooges eye poke defense
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