Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness

[Trent]

Back to the original post, "Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness?

In it's all encompassing, unqualified form the answer to the question would be a resounding, "No." I watched MMA go through it's labor pains and was competing in it at a very amateur level before it even had a name through "studio contests" or "dojo wars" or whatever you wish to call them. Yeah, ground fighting and grappling did exist, but was not in the public eye except for judo and wrestling. Also, where do you think MMA receives it's techniques and background?

If we go back to the original question and place it within the context of the sport of MMA, or allow it to be placed only within the rule set provided in competition, I would have to change my answer to "Yes," generally speaking. Competitors train specifically for technical and tactical advantages inherent to the ring and rules/ prohibitions inherent in the sport, like any sport. And they have learned to adapt traditional techniques specifically for the situation they will find themselves in-- the ring. Thousands of competitors train and share on what works in competition and what won't every day. What will and what won't receive a disqualification are also shared. Today, if someone is solely a traditionalist without training "MMA" specifically but competes in the ring against an MMA practitioner they will lose almost every time when accepting that rule set whether it be through knockout, points or disqualification, a loss is a loss.

MMA has come a very long way in the last decade alone, let alone the last two decades. I enjoy the fact that it has caused many traditional arts (not all) to remember some cold, hard facts about real training and hand-to-hand situations, but it isn't the be all, end all by any means.

 

[MJS]

Back to the original post, "Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness?

In it's all encompassing, unqualified form the answer to the question would be a resounding, "No." I watched MMA go through it's labor pains and was competing in it at a very amateur level before it even had a name through "studio contests" or "dojo wars" or whatever you wish to call them. Yeah, ground fighting and grappling did exist, but was not in the public eye except for judo and wrestling. Also, where do you think MMA receives it's techniques and background?

If we go back to the original question and place it within the context of the sport of MMA, or allow it to be placed only within the rule set provided in competition, I would have to change my answer to "Yes," generally speaking. Competitors train specifically for technical and tactical advantages inherent to the ring and rules/ prohibitions inherent in the sport, like any sport. And they have learned to adapt traditional techniques specifically for the situation they will find themselves in-- the ring. Thousands of competitors train and share on what works in competition and what won't every day. What will and what won't receive a disqualification are also shared. Today, if someone is solely a traditionalist without training "MMA" specifically but competes in the ring against an MMA practitioner they will lose almost every time when accepting that rule set whether it be through knockout, points or disqualification, a loss is a loss.

MMA has come a very long way in the last decade alone, let alone the last two decades. I enjoy the fact that it has caused many traditional arts (not all) to remember some cold, hard facts about real training and hand-to-hand situations, but it isn't the be all, end all by any means.

I agree...MMA has come a very long way, since its debut in '93. We went from 1 style fighters, to multi style fighters. From epic 30min battles, to rounds with time limits. We've seen that its important, not only for MMA fighters, but for TMAists as well, to be well rounded. Long gone are the days when you can just do BJJ and expect to win. The grapplers understood that you need to learn to strike, and the strikers learned that you need to grapple.

Given the popularity of MMA, yes, its very possible to encounter someone in the real world, with a grappling background, and as crazy as it may be to roll on the pavement, if you do end up there, you'd better know how to roll and counter and be able to get back to your feet.

I have said, and will continue to say, that I feel strongly, that everyone can benefit from each other. People shouldn't be so blind to the many things that're out there. Look at what you can add to your art from someone else, to make yourself better.

 

[fangjian]

I am curious. There are many techniques found in many different TMA's that would be considered ineffective for combat.

How many techniques/tactics/strategies are found in MMA matches that are considered 'suspect' for "real" street fighting?

 

[mwd0818]

I am curious. There are many techniques found in many different TMA's that would be considered ineffective for combat.

How many techniques/tactics/strategies are found in MMA matches that are considered 'suspect' for "real" street fighting?

Anything that puts you on the ground and "engaged" with your opponent.

 

[fangjian]

Anything that puts you on the ground and "engaged" with your opponent.

So the 'ground and pound' and 'submission grappling' aspects are not advised for real combat, but the 'sprawl and brawl' and 'clinch fighting' aspects are ok?

 

[mwd0818]

I purposely over-simplified my response, but in a real street situation, everything has its place really, but anything that results in a loss of a situational awareness and/or an inability to disengage quickly is a dangerous move. There might not be any friends, there might not be any weapons, and a friendly cop might be there to bail you out, but those are a lot of "mights".

Survival should be paramount in a street situation, and then closely followed by terminating the threat. Termination of a threat is often most easily accomplished by distance, and distance is tough to establish while you are engaged in a grappling contest.

 

[tallgeese]

However, grappling can occur.

You can trip, get overpowered, or any endless list of things. Heck, a competent high school wrestler can take about any competent karate guy down IF said karate guy hasn't trained to deal with it. Even then, a slightly better high school wrestler might get one down.

I do get tired of hearing the mantra about staying off the ground and then have those same people either not train on the ground or short change their training there under the premise that it's a bad idea to go there.

Situations are often too fluid to rule out anything as a no-no. More tools equal more options that cover more situations.

 

[fangjian]

What I am wondering is if any TMA'er ( whatever style, Tkd, Karate, etc) while watching an MMA fight says to themself " pfft. If someone ever did 'that' to me in a 'real' fight, they're gonna get hurt"

 

[tallgeese]

As to the clinch, it's highly advisable to train here for street level encounters. It's a distance gap that often gets ignored in trad training and is often seen in sd confrontations.

 

[MJS]

I am curious. There are many techniques found in many different TMA's that would be considered ineffective for combat.

How many techniques/tactics/strategies are found in MMA matches that are considered 'suspect' for "real" street fighting?

I think my reply will address both of these questions. IMO, I'd say that simple things are the key. When you start getting into long, in-depth techniques, the chances of success start to get shorter. I say this due to the ever changing scenario. For example...lets say I pick a Kenpo tech against a right punch. Odds are, I'm not going to complete the full tech. before I have to adjust and move on to something else. Keep in mind, my opponent isn't going to stand there.

If we look at MMA matches, we see 2 fighters fighting for 3, 5 min rounds. Are they doing things, during that time, to really take out their opponent? Does it really make sense to hold someone in your guard for 20min, while you tire that person out, so you can move in for the kill? I'd so no.

Now, I'm a big advocate of ground work, and I feel that it should be something that everyone has some background in. Some will say that they'll never end up there, but I don't know how they can predict what will/will not happen. If you trip, stumble, whatever, and end up on the ground, it'd be very wise to know how to survive the initial fall, how to escape whatever position you're in, and safely get back to your feet.

 

[mwd0818]

However, grappling can occur. . . . More tools equal more options that cover more situations.

I agree, and it's why I have ranks in Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and BJJ too. But it's important to remember that an MMA sport bout is not real life. It is definitely moreso than point sparring, but it is not a real self-defense situation. I will stick to the idea that your primary goal is in a street situation is to survive, and then, to terminate the threat. The more exposed you are to different threats, punching, kicking, grappling, multiple attackers, etc., the better you will be prepared to survive. Ignore the ground, and you trip and are in a world of hurt. Think the ground is the ultimate, you engage the wrestling, get a guy's back and choke him out while his friend is kicking you in the head.

It's all about awareness and being as prepared as possible. Sport techniques are for sports, self-defense is for real life, and is a lot more than punching, kicking, or grappling.

 

[tallgeese]

Sure, I agree. But the reference was to MMA and it's components, not plethora of other things that go into the whole package.

 

[fangjian]

If we look at MMA matches, we see 2 fighters fighting for 3, 5 min rounds. Are they doing things, during that time, to really take out their opponent? Does it really make sense to hold someone in your guard for 20min, while you tire that person out, so you can move in for the kill? I'd so no.

Thanks for your reply.

So I see two things here, which are strategies

1. The fighter knows exactly what to plan for (1 on 1 for 3 min round, etc)
2. Pulling guard or closing your guard and keeping them there.

 

[suicide]

Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness ?

i know us tma´s train for sd , for situations in the streets that can very explosive and dangerous but what about a mma you think what they do in the octagon wont work in the real world ? i believe they can be very effective - i dont know if more than or less than a tma i guess it all depends on the person but thats what i was asking.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness ?

i know us tma´s train for sd , for situations in the streets that can very explosive and dangerous but what about a mma you think what they do in the octagon wont work in the real world ? i believe they can be very effective - i dont know if more than or less than a tma i guess it all depends on the person but thats what i was asking.

Well, for starters, the techniques of MMA all come out of one TMA or another. Many TMA's have techniques developed around sport/competition.

So some were developed for a sport/competition scenario. Some were developed for combat. Use of sport techniques for practical SD is a bad idea, whether or not the user learned them in a TMA or MMA.

Daniel

 

[suicide]

what mma sport tech. do you think would be a bad idea to use on the street ?

 

[fangjian]

Well, for starters, the techniques of MMA all come out of one TMA or another. Many TMA's have techniques developed around sport/competition.

So some were developed for a sport/competition scenario. Some were developed for combat. Use of sport techniques for practical SD is a bad idea, whether or not the user learned them in a TMA or MMA.

Daniel

What sport techniques in MMA would be a bad idea?

 

[MJS]

If we look at MMA matches, we see 2 fighters fighting for 3, 5 min rounds. Are they doing things, during that time, to really take out their opponent? Does it really make sense to hold someone in your guard for 20min, while you tire that person out, so you can move in for the kill? I'd so no.

Thanks for your reply.

So I see two things here, which are strategies

1. The fighter knows exactly what to plan for (1 on 1 for 3 min round, etc)
2. Pulling guard or closing your guard and keeping them there.

1) Well, pretty much, yes. This, IMO, is one of the things that seperates fighting from SD. I started a thread on this a while back on here, but I feel that the 2 are different, although they do share some similarities.

2) This is good and bad, depending on how its looked at. Now, I'd say bad in the sense that if you intentionally took a position, in this case the guard, for the sole purpose of doing what Royce would do, which is tire the person out, frustrate the hell out of them, due to the other persons inability to escape, and then move in for the kill...well, is that really what yo'd want to spend time doing in a bar, club, parking lot, etc.?

Now, if it meant to momentarily take that position to stop and attack, ie: you get taken down, the badguy is on top, raining punches down on you, well, it may not be a bad idea to take the guard, to nullify that attack, and work for an escape or if it presents itself right away, a choke or lock/break.

 

[suicide]

?

 

[MJS]

Has MMA surpassed traditional MA in its effectiveness ?

i know us tma´s train for sd , for situations in the streets that can very explosive and dangerous but what about a mma you think what they do in the octagon wont work in the real world ? i believe they can be very effective - i dont know if more than or less than a tma i guess it all depends on the person but thats what i was asking.

Well, for starters, the techniques of MMA all come out of one TMA or another. Many TMA's have techniques developed around sport/competition.

So some were developed for a sport/competition scenario. Some were developed for combat. Use of sport techniques for practical SD is a bad idea, whether or not the user learned them in a TMA or MMA.

Daniel

what mma sport tech. do you think would be a bad idea to use on the street ?

What sport techniques in MMA would be a bad idea?

I'm leaning in agreement with Daniel here. As I've said in earlier posts, much is going to come down to how you train. I'm not sure if the questions being asked here are legit or baiting but nonetheless, I don't think that its that difficult to see a difference, especially if you're the slightest bit familiar with MMA. Actually, I gave a few examples just a moment ago, when I spoke of the guard.

Lets use this as an example...I know we've all talked about the saying, "You fight like you train." So going on that, lets use Rocye as an example. Anyone familiar with his fights, should see that his striking skills are not up to par. His specialty is fighting on the ground, not striking. That being said, is it going to make sense, to pull guard, for the sake of pulling it, as I mentioned in my last post, to tire someone out, just so you can go for a sub., when there are many other things, that are available to you, that probably won't put you in a bad position?