Has anyone heard of Goshin Jutsu Karate

[JAMJTX]

Let me add to my last post and to what thekai added withregards to the style becoming legit after the fact.

Jerry Durant was liar and a phony. His background has been known from the start, all of his credentials have been discredted, and it is well known that he had no skills - which is also documentedon video.

All of those who now teach the "goshinjutsu" got very high ranks from Jerry or others who got thier ranks from Jerry.

With no knowledge or skill, Jerry could not have had the ability to teach, which is also supported by the lack of knowldge and skill in his students.

I do not see how simply adding kata that was learned from another source could erase all of that.

You should probably take your Shotokan kata and go visit a real Shotokan dojo and see if these are being taught properly. Let a master teacher evaluate your stances, movement and technique. Go and spar against people the same rank as you and see how you fare.

Then try the same with the Judo and Aikijujutsu portions of your art. It may be hard to find an Aikijujutsu teacher as there are only about 5 in the U.S., but there may be seminars you can go to. I can guarantee you that you will find a world of difference.

 

[JAMJTX]

This is interesting:

"The basic tenets of this system are hard to come by. Different sources will say that the system focuses on joint locks, or pressure points, or is "traditional karate." This last claim is extremely suspect, since only one (Heiyan Yodan) of the system's 11 kata even closely resembles any traditional Okinawan kata. One other, Heian Shodan, starts just as the Shotokan kata of the same name does, but quickly turns into an arbitrary collection of moves. "

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1405043

I guess they are not really using the Shotokan kata after all.

 

[andy]

arbitrary collection?
That's laughable, if learning something new or pulling what works from other systems garners that opinion, I gladly accept your opinion. I for one will always accept what works and not hold a three generation grudge.
How many vids or pics shall we now share just to settle this lineage dispute.?

You must hang on to your personal lineage vendetta as you keep proving my point.

I suppose next you'll ask if I can speak japanese?

 

[Tgace]

http://www.goshinjutsu.org/pages/history.htm

Goshin history in the U.S. begins with Gerard Durant. As a small boy, Jerry was introduced to Karate by his father who was a Jujitsu master. Master Durant was in the merchant marines in the 1940's when he "jumped ship" in Japan, spending the next 13 years learning Karate.

Now I am in no way familiar with this art or this person, but IMHO whenever I hear the "father was a martial arts master who taught me as a child" (an American Jujitsu "master" pre WWII??) line my radar lights up. That coupled with some unusual story about going AWOL from the merchant marines for 13 years....well......im skeptical.

 

[andy]

as you should be.
But to claim that a growing art is garbage because of a personal grudge against lineage is one dimensional at best. especially as goshin jutsu --in The here and now- can and does prove it's worth no matter what part of america it travels to.
I have studied many styles; And I can safely say in my late thirtys that goshin jutsu stands more then adequate. It is a personal grudge that is being displayed here.
If I said I study wing chun under snoopy will that make a cat mock me?

Or maybe if bruce lee had never left the chinese lineage to teach the round eyes, --would there be JKD?

this is the same old story

 

[TimoS]

if learning something new or pulling what works from other systems

Then, IMHO, you'll just end up with a collection of disparate techniques. And also, how do you take what works ? How much has anyone who does this worked in understanding the technique ? Has anyone authorized them to teach those things ? If not, how can you be sure that you've understood it correctly. A good example: yesterday we were practising kata Seisan. I've been practising it quite regularly for the last three or so years and still I'm not doing it right! It doesn't look complicated, the "outside" form, but there are many many details that can and will still go wrong.

 

[JAMJTX]

Andy, BlueDragon claimed that they practice Shotokan kata. If that is true, then they will be Shotokan kata. Not just an "arbitrary collection" of movements that start out like the Shotokan kata.

My would be that, in an attempt to get away from Durant's reputation while trying to save the school without having to do any real work, the person who "added the Shotokan kata", either saw them done and tried to copy them but failed. Or they had some other Shotokan charlatan teach them the kata.

Please tell us about this person's Shotokan background. Who he trained with - not just got shown these kata - but did real training - and what ranking they hold in Shotokan.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

In reading posts on other forums from Gene Williams, and JAMJTX you will find that they pretty much bash any style not their own. From what I have seen they have not shown enough respect for me to listen to them. In order for me to respect someones opinion they have to respect mine. They have also from what i can tell have been banned from a few forums.

Why all the negativity towards other arts that are not the ones you practice? Why not respect the people who study martial arts? Someone studies an art not theirs they don't seem to respect you. Snide comments, blasts on personal character seem to rule their posts. Why respect someones opinion when they don't respect yours. Once an argument starts being personal attacks on someones character it is no longer a valid argument.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Here is a link for what Durants son says about the art.

http://www.defendwithhonor.com/articles/article2.html

I'm not saying that this is "truth" but at least you will see a different view other than the negative ones.

POLITICS is littered with misuse of statements, misinterpretation, and twisting of truth. Its a shame that people do it but it is done. So take even what I say with a grain of salt. Someones perception of something that was said can be totally different than what was ment by the person saying it. POLITICIANS thrive on this.

 

[JAMJTX]

"and JAMJTX you will find that they pretty much bash any style not their own"
This is just a totally ridiculous statement. I have spoken quite positive, as has Gene, about many arts that we do not train in, as well as reccomend other teachers.

What you will see that our posts have in common is that we both often rout out liars, fakes and frauds.

We are also both very sensative to stories about Kuniba and the Seishinkai and NKJU and those affiliated with both. Gene is a bit older than I am, but we were members of the NKJU at the same time and he was in the Seishinkai before the NKJU was formed. So I would say that he is more knowledgable than I, and also has a better grasp of the politics that took place when I was too young to know anything about it.

In the case of Durant, Gene was around when he was trying to join the Seishinkai and NKJU and was not allowed. Everyone knew he was lying about his training and credentials and was seen as being a moron and a loser.

I also know for a fact, as I heve seen his certificates, that they are all fake. One was "signed" by a well known Judo teacher, but the date on the certificate was 10 years after the man died. Kuniba's signature on the same certificate was also forged.

Matt Durant is about as much of a loser as Jerry was, and about as big as a liar.

If you want to be respected by martial artists, stop lying about the history of your style and Jerry Durant and all his underlings. All you need to do is pick up a couple of books on the history of Karate and you will see all of the Jerry Durant stories fall apart.

As long as you continue to hop from board to board trying to promote this absolute nonsense as being a martial art, you will continue to be laughed at and ridiculed just as Jerry when he was alive.

 

[JAMJTX]

"Someones perception of something that was said can be totally different than what was ment by the person saying it"

The only thing that can be percieved by a man forging the names of a bunch of other men on a certificate is that he is a fraud. That's what Jerry did and that is what he was. And the tradition continues.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Sorry if it seemed as a personal attack JAMJTX. Didn't mean it that way. Just most the posts in other areas i've seen have been negative and attacks on people.

I'm sure your a good martial artist. But to say I'm not because I study goshin is wrong. I personally don't like Tae Kwon Do, but I respect many of the people in it. There are a few arts I know of where the founder was questionable. The people who still do the art may be good martial artists. What I don't like are your personal attacks. Don't like Durant....well why doom everyone when you don't like him. Calling someone a loser because you didn't like his father is also very ignorant.

 

[JAMJTX]

From www.defendwithhonor.com

“There are many stories about the origins of Goshin Jutsu Karate”
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This is one of the major problems. They keep changing their history every time another story is proven to be a lie. There is no reason for there not to be a very clear and precise history here. Japanese martial arts are so old they are rooted in myths and legends as old as Japanese history itself. This “art” was created here in the US in the 1960's. By that time, Karate had not been shrouded in secrecy for 40 years. There was a a lot of documentation and standards for training and promotions were well established. There should not be any excuse for the students of Jerry Durant for not knowing who his teachers were and were not or where his rankings came from. The only reason for all this confusion is too many lies and too revisions of history after the lies were exposed.
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In reference to his father Gerard Durant:

“He was born in Utica, N.Y.”
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Jerry alwaays said he was born in Japan. His obituary, which stated he was born in Utica was discovered and the information posted to forums like this. It was only then that the web sites like this one were updated to try to downplay the negative publicity.
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“He was introduced to Jiu Jutsu and Savate by his father who was a "player" as they were called.”
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This is just another example of the nonsense. Supposedly Jerry's father lived in NJ – not definitely not Japan as Jerry claimed. Where in NJ in the 1920's did Jerry's father learn Jujutsu and Savate in NJ? The answer is, he didn't learn it from anyone. There may have been Judo in NJ, but doubtful. There certainly was no Jujutsu and just as unlikely to have been Savate. And why, in the 1960's when Jerry started showing up at dojos in PA and NY, did he not have any martial arts knowledge or skill.
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“I cannot give you facts other than what I know as far as training or Instructors.”
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Jerry claimed to have Yudansha grades from the Osaka branch of the Kodokan that he earned in the 1930's. Except that branch did not exist then and the Kodokan has no record of him at all.
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“ I DO know he was a Judo Player in the Judo Club in St.Catherines, Ont. Canada. I still have his Shodan card from that. I also KNOW he worked out for many years with Shintani Sensei, and have ways to back that up.”
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Jerry forged/faked well over a dozen black belt certificates of all styles and ranks. A “shodan card” from obscure Judo club outside of the country is hardly proof of rank or training. I would also like to see the “evidence” of his training with Shintani. What other students are alive to verify this? What kind of credentials did he receive from Shintani. Remember, the Kodokan has no record of him.
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“He worked with other Instructors in Erie, Pa, and met Wilhelm Reeders during those years and studied with him for quite awhile”
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If by “quite a while” you mean “a few months” then yes. Jerry trained with Reeders for a few months. If by “worked with other instructors” you mean he hopped from dojo to dojo looking to get rank without testing, then yes he did a lot of work. But the fact is, no one that knew Jerry would promote him to anything beyond 5th kyu because he was such a loser.
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“When Master Reeders left the area, he turned the Goshin Jutsu over to my father”
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Again, not true. Reeders pretty much thought the same as everyone else did about Jerry. He was loud mouthed loser with no skills. The club was closed and Jerry promoted himself to black belt an re-opened it.
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“His 10th Dan? I can only say that he was presented the rank at a tournament in Erie, Pa., and Glenn Premru presented the ranking.”
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One of the certificates was given to him by one William Cavalier and “cosigned” with the fake Japanese name of “Daiku Yama” under the instructors name. This handwriting matches that of the William Cavalier signature. Cavalier was Jerry's student not his instructor. This certificate is a joke. The other, his 10th dan in Aikijujitsu was signed by a man who was already dead and buried for 10 years.
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[JAMJTX]

"But to say I'm not because I study goshin is wrong."
You are probably very good at "goshin". But then again if Jerry Durant could be a 10th Dan, then it can not be all that difficult. Jerry couldn't punch his way out of wet paper bag.

" Don't like Durant....well why doom everyone when you don't like him. Calling someone a loser because you didn't like his father is also very ignorant."

I didn;t call Matty a loser because I don't like his father. His father was big loser and he just followed in his foot steps. Didn't Matty serve some prison time in FL? He seems to have disappeared for a while and recently returned to the scene. Some have said that he was in Jail in FL during the time the goshin people lost track of him. It has also been said that he spent his childhood in and out out Juvenile Facilities - which were often called "reform school" back then. It seems he's been a loser his whole life. Or were the Police and the courts just picking on him then because they didn't like Jerry either? You also still will not address the reason why I don't like Jerry - because he forged my teachers name on his rank certificates! I think tha'ts a pretty darn good reason to dislike someone and not have any respect for the people who still push this nonsense. If you want to be respected by martial artists, then join the martial arts community and you will be respected. People aren't respected because of the number of patches they wear or the number of stripes they sew on thier belt - they are respected because they train. They get more respect based on real accomplishments, not by forging signatures on certificates.

Also, you are doomed by your connection to Durant. You cling to the lies and myths even though they have all been shot down by historical facts. The "goshinists" have a history of karate that contradicts virtually every Japanese writing on the history. Why should we take what the "goshinists" say over what Miyagi, Funakoshi, Nagamine, Kuniba, and all the others wrote and taught? Why should we take the "goshinists" version history over that of Kano and Ueshiba?
You have absolutely nothing to support any statements made by yourself, Durant or anyone in the leadership today. All you can say is "believe me, it works". Well where was this art proven - besides in open point tournaments against other fakers and wannabes?

You previously stated the Goshin should be considered a legit style now because of the inclusion of Shotokan kata. Which is ridiculous in itself. But you were asked who taught the Shotokan kata to the goshinists and never answered. I would like to know who introduced the Shotokan, what ranking they have, who issued that rank and who issued the instructor credentials?
And please don't say it doesn't matter, because it does. Otherwise you would not be making these claims.

"There are a few arts I know of where the founder was questionable." All new arts are treated with skepticism. That is healthy for the arts and helps enforce standards. Even Judo was scoffed at. But when then happened, did Dr. Kano go out and print up some fancy looking certificates to "prove himself"? No! He just kept on his path of training and teaching and opening his dojo to instructors of other arts, he sent his students to other dojo. Then finally there was big competiton between his top students and some top Jujutsu students and Judo won out. The rest as they say "is history"
Jerry Durant did exactly the opposite, and his followers today continue to do the same thing.

 

[JAMJTX]

There is another section on this web site where one of the goshin hanshi also claims to teach Tomiki Aikido. There is a link to a web site where you can "verify this". But that web site is not the Tomiki honbu, it is another site run by goshin people. Is this what you mean by "defend with honor"? It seems to me to be just another scam.

I will contact the Tomiki honbu and see what they have to say about this group. My guess is that the response will be the same as from the Aikikai, the Seishinkai, the Kodokan and all other instructors that Jerry Durant claimed to train with - "never heard of him"

 

[donald]

There is a studio in Mayfield,Ohio that I believe teaches Goshin Jutsu Karate. They have been around forever. The head instructor was a guy named Frank Kovaks(sp?). I say was because I have'nt heard his name in quite sometime. As far a s I know they had a good rep. in the area. Are they connected to your org.?

By GOD's Grace,

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentlemen this thread started with someone posting what art he studied and why he liked it. From that point on I see a vendetta being posted against the founder of the art, name calling, trash talking about an art that has survived beyond the first generation of creation, and just plain bad manners by some.



I had posted a warning early in the thread then unfortunately I forgot the thread was "out there". My Bad.



NOW read this carefully


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[JAMJTX]

There is an absolutely hilarious video available that was made by people from the Durant organization. It is the most awful demonstration of "martial arts" I have ever seen. It could be shown as a comedy, excpet that the people in it are taking it serious. One of those is in the video is Kovacs. I don't see how he could have a "good reputation", unless no one in the area ever saw Japanese/Okinawan karate before.

The video is discussed in one of the e-budo threads about this style.

Having survived more than one geenration does not legitimize a style. Most of the charlatans and thier organizations survive more than one generation and many have been around since Jerry Durant's day. Jerry was a fake who forged names on numerouis certifcates. The "art" is laughable - just get a copy of the tape. And adding made up kata with the same names as Shotokan Kata and putting links to legitimate organizations on a web site will also never change the facts.

 

[7starmantis]

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