Has anyone heard of Goshin Jutsu Karate

[JAMJTX]

"It has a big controversy about its background that of course was not disputed until the creator of it died"

This is also a misleading statement.
Everyone who knew Jerry Durant when he was alive thought he was an idiot, so the controversy is not new. He tried to join the Seishinkai and was not allowed to, so he forged both Baillargeon and Kuniba's signatures on documents. He claimed to have earned black belt rankings in Judo from the Kodokan. The Kodokan has no record of him and the only Judo certificate he had was also a fake. The "teacher" who "signed it" dies 10 years before the date on the certificate.

These are not the actions of a person of character, honor, or of one who has even the slightest bit of confidence in the legitimacy of what he is doing.

The internet, which came about after he died, allows for wider dissemination of information and more people can more quickly learn the truth about things like this. But the controversy was very real when he was still alive. This is not just a matter of people picking on poor Jerry now that he's dead. This is people continuing to tell the truth about a sad, pathetic man who wanted to be a martial arts grand master but couldn't even muster up a "green belt" so he quit, faked some documents, adopted a fake Japanese accent and started teaching on his own.

See www.e-budo.com and contact Ken Algier for a copy of the video of Jerry and the current grandmasters doing a demo at a mall in TX. This is absolutley hilarious.

Jim Mc Coy

 

[Gene Williams]

I've met Durant's students...they're poor quality and most make things up as they go. Durant was a sleaze, a nut case, a fraud. Get over it! Find a real martial art.

 

[searcher]

I know you know this, but I'll say it anyway: there's a world of difference between Choki Motobu and Jerry Durant! I've never seen Durant's creation with my own eyes, but based on what I've read about it and on their pages, I'm quite sure that I haven't missed anything but a few good laughs

I was not trying to compare Motobu and Durant. Sorry if it sounded like that. I was just making a statement that everybody is hated by somebody. I am just trying to encourage instead of slam.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Quit putting this crap on the tread and bringing your friends in. You are being very disrespectful and if this is what your art teaches you then you need to look at yourself. I did not study under Durant. Is it possible that the founder could be someone people did not like but the art be legit? Yes it is. Is it possible that good martial artists come out of it? Yes. I have seen better martial arts from many Goshin practioners and I assure you I do have a basis to compare it on. In no way am I saying that it is the best system in the world. The cost of a class in this area is lower than what it costs for a gallon of gas. So money really isn't a big issue. Please respect me and leave your crap on e-budo.

You only disgrace yourself when you try to disgrace others.

 

[Gene Williams]

The art, as Durant taught it, is not legit. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****

 

[tshadowchaser]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-

 

[JAMJTX]

"Is it possible that the founder could be someone people did not like but the art be legit? Yes it is"

Yes, this could be true. Bit not here.

If Jerry Durant's "art" was/is legit then why:
The forged documents
The lies about being born in Japan
The lies about training in Japan
The fake Japanese accent, etc, etc, etc?

If you did not wish to turn this forum into the "Bad Budo" section of e-budo, you probably should not have mentioned anything related to Jerry Durant. Jerry was probably the original pervayor of "bad budo" and serves as a role model for every 2 bit fake, hustler, scheister, mcdojo soke, budo-wannabe that followed him.

You can keep training in this style if you want to, there is really nothing wrong doing that. It is not illegal (stupidity is not a crime, so your free to go), or even immoral. But you have been on every known message board bringing up the same subject with the same trolling question: "has anyone heard of Goshin Jutsu" and posting the same links. You also keep getting the same response from the Budo community: outrageous laughter and the facts about Jerry Durant's lunatic history and his fake documents.

Also, no one is "bringing thier friends in". The same brain malfunctions that lead you to think that Jerry Durant was a martial artist is also apparently making you paranoid.

Jim Mc Coy

Jim Mc Coy

 

[searcher]

Let me ask this question. Do any of you think that what is being taught today from the Durant lineage is possibly better than what Durant taught or do you believe it to be the same? I suppose that it could have been supplemented and re-shaped into something else. If this is not in line with the discussion please tell me, don't ding me and run.

 

[TimoS]

I also have a couple of questions. You said that the kata come mainly from Shotokan. Who introduced them to the system and how much experience did he/they have in Shotokan ? Because the kata names that I've seen floating around for Durant's system (I can't find them right now) are not even closely related to Shotokan kata names (which doesn't really prove anything). The same question actually goes to the claim that your joint locks are from aikijutsu/aikido.

 

[searcher]

I also have a couple of questions. You said that the kata come mainly from Shotokan. Who introduced them to the system and how much experience did he/they have in Shotokan ? Because the kata names that I've seen floating around for Durant's system (I can't find them right now) are not even closely related to Shotokan kata names (which doesn't really prove anything). The same question actually goes to the claim that your joint locks are from aikijutsu/aikido.

If this series of questions are directed at me let me clear something up. I only gave a report on what it appeared to me. I have not or will not say that what I saw is what it was or is. I have only been around a few of this styles people and have never trained in this system. I only commented on what I saw and the demeanor of the people representing this style.

If the questions are not directed at me then ignore this post.

 

[TimoS]

If the questions are not directed at me then ignore this post.

I'll do just that They weren't directed at you, because I know you're not practising this Goshinjutsu. The questions were directed at BlueDragon1981. I just forgot to use the quote functionality :uhyeah:

 

[searcher]

That's cool!

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Mr McCoy please don't post if you are going to continue to disrespect me and call me stupid etc.

The lineage after Durant can in turn be considered legit. Many have studied other styles and incorporated other styles. Having a grudge for Durant does not make it so that others behind him are not good martial artists. Having a grudge against one man in the system does not make the system inaffective. If you think I am not a legit martial artists because you don't like the style then so be it. I really am not concered with your opinion of me.

The katas that we have incorporated from shotokan that most practioners do are the Heian (sp?) katas, primarily 1 and 4. (Shodan, Yodan) Others may teach the 2nd and 3rd. Some teach teiken (i know the spelling is off on this one). Again this varies with instructor. Core kata's only involve 1 and 4.

I could argue the legistics of other arts but I am not going to, because there really isn't a point to me. If people get something out of a martial art that benefits them no matter the art then the art has done something possitive. (as long as it isn't a negative attitude that one art is better than the other.)

If you want to say "Bad Budo" Mr McCoy then you are guilty of it also. Placing negative remarks to any goshinist because you hated one is of course in my opinion (as you have an opinion) "Bad Budo".

All I'm asking is a simple response of if anyone has heard of the art. Not an analysis of if you like it or not. So for now on if you don't like the art just simply post. Yes I've heard of it and it doesn't seem to me as a great art, at least to me anyway....something to that effect.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i think you are getting responses from people that have heard of the art........and they are telling you things you do not want to hear about it. if the negativity of the conversation is getting to you because of peoples reaction to the fraudulent founder, stop posting about it.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

I don't care that their is negativity about the art but slamming people personally is not what I consider a good post about something you don't like about the art. I have not liked a lot of people I have met in certain arts does that make me bash the art. No. I try not to call people stupid for their opinions such as Mr McCoy implied. You have to realize they are trying to discredit people not just the art.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

lots of people slam the "founder" of my art....probably more than any other art out there.......if thats what you want to study....get used to it

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Calling me stupid for studing it though is not what I consider a valid response.

 

[JAMJTX]

Sure James Mitose was a controversial figure. But there are some major differences between him, Durant and those that continue the Durant traditions.

We will likely never know for sure who all of MItoses teachers were. He did tell some stories, but he also did have real training there in Hawaii and had real skills.

As for Durant, there are still people around who new him from his first days. They know where he was born, they know when he started training and when his training stopped about 6 months later. They know when he "appeared" as a Black Belt and they know he never trained with the people he said he trained with. There are plenty of certificates around to compare signatures to see that they do not match those signatures on Durants certs. Unlike the early days, there are also a number of people who can read kanji well enough to know that the kanji on Durant's certificates are upside down, backwards and often not even real characters. Unlike the early days, we can contact places like the Kodokan and ask about Jerry Durant, and the respsonse is always that they have no record him.

How did these other arts get incorporated into what Jerry left behind? And how does adding some kata to the curriculum, which some practice and some do not, make it a legit art. Who introduced the Shotokan, who did they train with and what ranking did they earn in Shotokan and who authorized them to teach? My guess would be that someone either picked up a book, was a "1 day wonder" - saw them at a seminar and promoted themself in Shotokan.
The same questions apply to the Judo and Aikijujutsu that are incorporated into the "art".

BlueDragon, you come to these boards trying to promote this style and convince everyone that it is legit. Please tell us how it became legit. Name some governing bodies that recognize it.

 

[The Kai]

If a group of people keep telling you you are wrong and you ignore them.:idunno:


Legitimate after the fact? If the foundation is'nt true then alot of people will suspect the rest of the structure is inherently flawed. The question is if you do indeed find out that you're founder was really making up some wild stories-why would you stay on such a unworthy vessal?

Black cat's founder may be controversial yet few, if any, question his skills.

 

[JAMJTX]

Calling me stupid for studing it though is not what I consider a valid response.

I apologize for that comment.