Has ABC News Found The Ghost In Toyota’s Machine?

Rich Parsons

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Per: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/has-abc-news-found-the-ghost-in-toyotas-machine/


Go to the link and watch the video.

Has ABC News Found The Ghost In Toyota’s Machine?


By Edward Niedermeyer on February 22, 2010

Ever since Toyota’s recent problems hit “frenzy” level on our mainstream media monitoring system, speculation has been rampant that some mysterious electronic problem was at the root of the unintended acceleration scandal. We’ve been wary of jumping on the “ghost-in-the-machine” bandwagon, for a number of reasons, chief among which is the fact that it seems to be the product of an inability to explain specific instances of unintended acceleration, rather than hard evidence. Given that unintended acceleration occurs at the intersection of man and machine, good old-fashioned human error is an easier assumption than mystery software errors. Given the worrying results of our Toyota gas pedal analysis, we’ve been content to explain the situation on a combination of pedals, mats and human error. But now ABC News may just have the first positive evidence of an electronic problem that could explain the mystery behind Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. Dave Gilbert of Southern Illinois University has found that it’s possible to cause unintended acceleration without it triggering an error code that might give some kind of clue as to its cause. Combined with our finding that Toyota actively conceals data from its black box data recorders (out of line with standard industry practice), this could be some of the first positive evidence that there’s more to the “ghost in the machine” theory than mere panic-driven speculation.
 
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Rich Parsons

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Per: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...xpert-over-recreated-sudden-acceleration.html


Toyota Fights Back, Challenging ABC News and Expert Over Recreated Sudden Acceleration

After ABC News aired a segment yesterday where an expert was able to recreate a case of unintended acceleration, Toyota has taken to the offensive and challenged the news outlet and its source. In a video segment (see below), David Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University, recreates the problem in a Toyota Avalon, by introducing a short circuit to the controls to show that in such a circumstance the ECU does not record a fault and does not go into a “limp-mode.” The “short circuit” that Mr. Gilbert has introduced is intended to replicate a similar situation caused by moisture or wear.

Toyota has said that it has already been in touch with Mr. Gilbert using a similar setup in a Toyota Tundra and that in that circumstance the introduction of a transistor to create the short circuit creates, “an abnormal connection between two otherwise independent signals coming from the accelerator pedal sensors.” In other words, Toyota is asserting some pretty basic science, that the introduction of a new variable pretty much negates the process.

Hmmm, 20-20 does a complete one hour special on GM Side Sidle Tanks, and there is a small blurb on this for Toyota and their unintended Accelerations and not diagnosing failures properly.

While I do not approve of Flares and other ignition sources not found in normal crashes for the 20-20, I have to wait and see what was used by the Professor in his test. The complete denial by Toyota from thebegining has me doubting, but if they changed the circuit or in essence by passed teh circuit in a manner that could not happen in real life that is not reproducing the Toyota Unintended Acceleration failure mode.
 

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Rich,

Are you implying that Toyota intenitionally circumvented the system allowing the defect to be hiden from mechanics by not allowing a code to appear in diagnostic testing???
 
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Rich Parsons

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Rich,

Are you implying that Toyota intenitionally circumvented the system allowing the defect to be hiden from mechanics by not allowing a code to appear in diagnostic testing???

I am not implying any such thing.

I do not believe that any engineer would intentionally hide or design something with a known failure.

The Professor is saying that if a short did occur on both pedal sensors similar to shorting together from my understanding that could not be detected. Now if a second failure occurred with max voltage to a pedal sensor it would look like max pedal. But I cannot confirm, only from listening to what I have seen in the above links.
 

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RICH,

I must confess that I wrote my response before I had a chance to watch the video. I wanted to edit it but could not.

Here's my thing. In the video they "artificially" produced the "failure scenario". In essence they caused a short in the system by artificial means that simulated the problem and attempted at that point to see if the "artificial" failure would show as a DTC in the system. But when you artificially introduce something into the the system that does not belong there how can the system see it. As for the magic box. Aaah the magic box. It is my understanding that it does not monitor every system every connection and every hick-up in these systems all at the same time. It moves from one system to another obtaining snap shots as it were. Most DTC's cover an area or system. Even if it picked up on a malfunction it may or may not identify a specific problem with a specific component.

Yes Toyota does have a problem I understand this but the way the information is presented to the public is a bit misleading.
 
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Rich Parsons

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RICH,

I must confess that I wrote my response before I had a chance to watch the video. I wanted to edit it but could not.

Here's my thing. In the video they "artificially" produced the "failure scenario". In essence they caused a short in the system by artificial means that simulated the problem and attempted at that point to see if the "artificial" failure would show as a DTC in the system. But when you artificially introduce something into the the system that does not belong there how can the system see it. As for the magic box. Aaah the magic box. It is my understanding that it does not monitor every system every connection and every hick-up in these systems all at the same time. It moves from one system to another obtaining snap shots as it were. Most DTC's cover an area or system. Even if it picked up on a malfunction it may or may not identify a specific problem with a specific component.

Yes Toyota does have a problem I understand this but the way the information is presented to the public is a bit misleading.


Kelly,

to edit you only get I think 30 minutes to go back and edit a post. If it is critical you might be able to contact a mod for the area or a senior Super Mod or Admin to help you.

In testing most failures are induced artificially. You hook up a break out box and short the connections to ground and to power and to other sources and see what happens. Usually you can detect when something is shorted to something else. Not always as 12 volt or system voltage shorted to system voltage would be the same, and the same would be for 5 volt sensors as well, if the short was on the 5 volt side. But there are system ways to avoid this. Have one sensor go from 0 to 5 volts while the other goes from 5 to 0 volts. Or one from 0 to 5 and the other from o to 2.5 Volts.

As to the black box of after market Code detectors, it is something I also would want to see. The question is could he reproduce it and have the Toyota Device that should be able to report on all devices on the vehicle show no codes.

The feedback for testing such as when you command x amps and then read back for X or near X amps. If you get out of an acceptable range you would set a code. If you were sending out a voltage you could measure for that voltage to make sure you were commanding the proper voltage.

Of course it all depends upon the complete system, and what I have stated is just examples from a very high level view based on little to no infomration of the workings of the system.
 

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RICH,
Thanks for the heads up on the edit function, I did not know that there was a time limit.

Believe it or not you are talking in a language that I am familiar with, basics only, with you being more knowledgeable.

Lets take a look at this from another perspective. I feel that any car that has and electronic accelerator pedal can artificially be induced to preform in the same manor that the Toyota did in the film.

I think that maybe the "black box" was not designed to pic up voltage spikes or losses, amps volts ohms, in the area of the accelerator pedal, this could lead to a failure with no diagnostic codes present. It could also be that the failure occurred so intermittently and in a short enough time frame that it would not be detected. In the film they were not viewing the "real" problem as it occurred but a simulation. It would be interesting to me to see if other product lines can induce this problem and there be a clear diagnostic path to follow ie DTC's. I would almost bet that vehicle's, not only Toyota, if they do not already, will have that capability in the future. Sometime a lesson learned from one is used by all to make the product safer for everyone.
 
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Rich Parsons

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RICH,
Thanks for the heads up on the edit function, I did not know that there was a time limit.

Believe it or not you are talking in a language that I am familiar with, basics only, with you being more knowledgeable.

Lets take a look at this from another perspective. I feel that any car that has and electronic accelerator pedal can artificially be induced to preform in the same manor that the Toyota did in the film.

I think that maybe the "black box" was not designed to pic up voltage spikes or losses, amps volts ohms, in the area of the accelerator pedal, this could lead to a failure with no diagnostic codes present. It could also be that the failure occurred so intermittently and in a short enough time frame that it would not be detected. In the film they were not viewing the "real" problem as it occurred but a simulation. It would be interesting to me to see if other product lines can induce this problem and there be a clear diagnostic path to follow ie DTC's. I would almost bet that vehicle's, not only Toyota, if they do not already, will have that capability in the future. Sometime a lesson learned from one is used by all to make the product safer for everyone.


Kelly,

I cannot speak for all companies nor can I officially speak for the company I work for.

But from my limited knowledge, the two systems I am familiar with if you had induced the failure then it would have set a Diagnostic Code. The first being where one sensor goes from 5 to 0 volts as the pedal is pressed down. i.e. 0 % pedal is 5 volts and 100% pedal is 0 volts. Of course we usually do nto go all the way to 0 and all the way to 5 volts. Say 4.5 to 0.5 where if it is stuck at either end it could be detected. The other sensor would be the opposite of 0 volts at 0% pedal and 5 volts at 100% pedal. So know if you shorted one the other this would be detected as only at 50% could both be 2.5 Volts. Also if you brought in voltage to either sensor of 5 volts and it did not match what was expected on the other then there could be a code. Such as Sensor one is 0% pedal and 0 Volts, but is shorted to 5 volts. So it would act like 100% pedal. But the other sensor would be at 5 volts also for the pedal was really at 0 % so this would not match up in the comparison or decoding. This means that a DTC would be set. If you short the sensor expecting to be 5 volts you would see it at 5 volts so this could be a problem until the pedal was moved. Yet, as stated earlier one could use 4.5 volts and greater as the short to voltage. So if it was above the 4.5 volts for a while it would set the DTC. (* DTC is Diagnostic Trouble Code *)

The other system uses 1 to 4 as acceptable ranges and the second sensor uses 0.5 to 2 volts as acceptable ranges. So if it was stuck at 0 or 5 on the first it would be detected and if it was stuck at 0 or 2.5 it would be detected on the second. As one is always twice the other one within tolerances, if they were shorted together there would be a DTC.

I am not a safety expert. I know some of the strategy and some of the basics of the diagnostics.
 

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Thanks for the explanation, it was helpful. From your logic even an artificially introduced power increase or decrease should show up!
 
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Rich Parsons

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Thanks for the explanation, it was helpful. From your logic even an artificially introduced power increase or decrease should show up!

Kelly,

That is my understanding. But here is the big thing, I can give this slight insight, but I cannot speak with authority as I have not seen their Failure Mode Analysis, nor their system design which includes the hardware and software. They may have had something different from what I know in place. I cannot think of how it would be, but that does not mean that there is something I do no know as there are lots of things I do not know.

So do not take my comments as proof. Please wait for the full investigation and all the data and details to come out.


Thanks
 

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