Hapkido Curriculum

Brad Dunne

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I understand the policy in place, but throughout this entire thread, I have not seen anything related to anyone being called a fraud or a phony or just plain sucks. What I have seen is a debate regarding someone's offered physical abilities, as it relates to others being offered valued instructions and some felt, that valued instructions were not present and they offered their assessment of why it was so. IMO, no harm, no foul!............
 

shesulsa

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I understand the policy in place, but throughout this entire thread, I have not seen anything related to anyone being called a fraud or a phony or just plain sucks. What I have seen is a debate regarding someone's offered physical abilities, as it relates to others being offered valued instructions and some felt, that valued instructions were not present and they offered their assessment of why it was so. IMO, no harm, no foul!............

When the words "fake, fake, fake" are used to describe an individual, his system and teaching style, the term "fraudbusting" applies and that's why you see repeated staff warnings - which are applicable to everyone, btw, not just the immediately preceding poster.

The conversation has come a long way from the beginning, however, please take care to heed staff warnings and discuss the matter with aplomb.

Thank you.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
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matt.m

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I wish to point out the following, just my opinion. Hapkido isn't just joint locks......Nope it is heavily delved into throwing and if you want to have any longevity in the art you must know how to fall. If you don't then you may as well take judo and disregard falling as well.:erg:

Plus hapkido is a "Feeling" art. By this I mean you learn how to give pain and do the techniqe correctly and efficiently then you must know what it feels like to be in the technique.

About combat hapkido I offer this. If you don't like or believe in it then disregard it. If it spins your wheels then cool. Martial Arts have always had an out of the dojang following. He-Young Kimm, Bong Soo Han, Bruce Lee, and countless others have books etc. DVD is there because it is an easy medium. I will offer this for thought......

The KKW has a DVD showing the Taeguek poomsea, all are shown on the DVD. A white belt can mimick the movements but not do it correctly. However a 1st dan in TKD can look at the video on the DVD medium and see what they are doing wrong in the pattern. A gup rank can do the same, as long as they stay in their belt grade.

The point is you don't have the guy doing the poomsea telling you about the physics and keniesology behind the techniques. Raise of hands, who is poking at the KKW for releasing a DVD as a refrence aid to their book or sold seperately concerning poomsea?
 
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matt.m

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I have to agree with this whole "So and so is this and that." It is nonsense, look I don't care for Aikido. Is it decent? Yes. Is Ueshiba a legend? Yes. Do I participate in Aikdo? No, I don't. I do hold the founder in high regard and have a book dedicated to him with nice red cover. I don't talk crap about the art of aikido or any of its masters, to do so is just rude.

I find that I myself get received and perceived by others easier if I find some kind of good quality or something nice to say about someone rather than go through the whole defamation thing.
 

seasoned

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I don't think this is a discussion of style vs style but rather a person that seemed to have failed to learn proper basics of an art and then started his own.

If you look at any other Hapkido Organization heads you will see a marked difference in ability compared to GM P. There will be stylistic differences between them. That isn't a problem imo, but going against the principles or failing to utilize them that make Hapkido Techniques work is a problem imo. This is apparent in GM P's execution.


This forum is neutral ground for sharing and discussion. Focusing toward specific individuals crosses the line of good etiquette. Focusing on a technique, and it’s proper use in one’s own art, is better then focusing on a specific individual, and their endeavors. Notice how my above statement mentioned no one in particular, but made a generic statement in a general sense. IMHO. J
 

Kumbajah

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Probably this thread has run it's course.

As adults, I do think it possible to discuss the program and it's founder without the discussion of qualitative quantifiers ( Good/Bad, Right/Wrong, Correct/ Incorrect), which seems to be the part that is in violation of policy.

If we can agree on the premise that GM P's execution is the "de facto" execution of Combat Hapkido because he is the founder of the art, we can ask the question. "Why is his execution different from other Hapkido / Jujutsu arts? " and proceed from there.

Or not :) I'll defer to the moderations discretion.
 

matt.m

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Question. When, What location, and what time did you "Teach" at Quantico. I have friends that are high up in the enlisted food chain I know a lot of what goes on for Moral, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) and who they invite and sponsor for Seminar purposes when the U.S. Marines are concerned.

It is neat, since I was a member of the All Marine Judo team I suppose that when I did teaching of any kind then I did indeed train the Marines right? Wrong. Unless the Marine Corps does an overhaul of their Martial Arts training program then you didn't teach the military.

Consider this as well: I have seen a lot of so called hapkido. To say some of it was craptacular would be very kind. My outlook is this, if it spins your wheels cool do it. If you don't like it then fine, change the channel and move on. Albeit there are hapkido "Masters and Grandmasters" that I don't care for. Whatever the reason it is mine, you won't see me doing an internet BB posting about this rant though.
 
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Kumbajah

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Question. When, What location, and what time did you "Teach" at Quantico. I have friends that are high up in the enlisted food chain I know a lot of what goes on for Moral, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) and who they invite and sponsor for Seminar purposes when the U.S. Marines are concerned.

It is neat, since I was a member of the All Marine Judo team I suppose that when I did teaching of any kind then I did indeed train the Marines right? Wrong. Unless the Marine Corps does an overhaul of their Martial Arts training program then you didn't teach the military.

Consider this as well: I have seen a lot of so called hapkido. To say some of it was craptacular would be very kind. My outlook is this, if it spins your wheels cool do it. If you don't like it then fine, change thechannel and move on.

The FBI is also at Quantico :) I was part of a company PASS (now defunct ) That had My Grandmaster Jin Pal Kim and Former DEA Chief of Operations Management William Simpson at the head.
 

zDom

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Hapkido isn't just joint locks......Nope it is heavily delved into throwing and if you want to have any longevity in the art you must know how to fall. If you don't then you may as well take judo and disregard falling as well.:erg:

That is true of MSK hapkido (we have a HEAVY emphasis on throwing — and also kicks — don't forget our kicks!) but others may disagree, Matt.

Some HKD styles may feel perfectly comfortable with calling a collection of joint locking techniques "hapkido" believing the throws (and kicks?) just aren't that important.
 

matt.m

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Great answer,

Everybody knows the F.B.I. training academy is on Quantico. You weren't forthcoming on the time period. I mean something that monumental would be documented well would it not?

Back when I was in 92-97 the Gracies visited Camp Lejeune, NC and Quantico. Their visit was documented by Stars and Stripes and Leatherneck Magazine.

Hell anytime someone in the sports, martial arts world from Frank Zane to Mike Swain was documented thouroughly.

The FBI is also at Quantico :) I was part of a company PASS (now defunct ) That had My Grandmaster Jin Pal Kim and Former DEA Chief of Operations Management William Simpson at the head.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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That is true of MSK hapkido (we have a HEAVY emphasis on throwing — and also kicks — don't forget our kicks!) but others may disagree, Matt.

Some HKD styles may feel perfectly comfortable with calling a collection of joint locking techniques "hapkido" believing the throws (and kicks?) just aren't that important.
Ours tends to be fairly evenly distributed, though more joint locks and take downs than throws (60/40), with a lot of training in kicks and punches, and of course, a lot of rolling and falling. We also practice meditation and tanjon breathing.

Daniel
 

Kumbajah

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Great answer,

Everybody knows the F.B.I. training academy is on Quantico. You weren't forthcoming on the time period. I mean something that monumental would be documented well would it not?

Back when I was in 92-97 the Gracies visited Camp Lejeune, NC and Quantico. Their visit was documented by Stars and Stripes and Leatherneck Magazine.

Hell anytime someone in the sports, martial arts world from Frank Zane to Mike Swain was documented thouroughly.

It wasn't a major event. I.E. it wasn't a R&R event nor a self promotion event. We we're vying for a contract. We did a demo then instruction for the instructors at the FBI Academy. Nice guys.I'm unsure of the exact date. I'd put it around 2004 (5). Here are a couple of pictures from the day. It wasn't that big a deal imo.

http://www.kimjinpalhapkido.com/component/option,com_rsgallery2/Itemid,10/catid,9/lang,english/
 

crushing

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It wasn't a major event. I.E. it wasn't a R&R event nor a self promotion event. We we're vying for a contract. We did a demo then instruction for the instructors at the FBI Academy. Nice guys.I'm unsure of the exact date. I'd put it around 2004 (5). Here are a couple of pictures from the day. It wasn't that big a deal imo.

http://www.kimjinpalhapkido.com/component/option,com_rsgallery2/Itemid,10/catid,9/lang,english/


Is there a video to use as a comparison to the youtube video to which you linked earlier in the thread? A compare and contrast would be interesting.

FBI_DEMOs.jpg.jpg
 

Kumbajah

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Not from that event. There are videos on http://www.hapkidocanada.com/ and also YouTube of GM Kim, Master Lok and other Jin Pal Hapkido practitioners. A search for Jin Pal Hapkido should give you a few.
 

iron_ox

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Hello everyone,

I think that if the OP wants to include CH in his dojang, this is completely his choice, and he has as much access to the internet and the opinions about Pelligrini as everyone else.

I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal. Now, I have heard that CH as a large amount of material on DVD and this can be a help if you cannot attend regular classes - but is it then a case of polished advertising material, or strong Hapkido? This is a question I ask many people that say they train with me for proximity - if that is the only reason, they should look around and be sure I am the type of place they want.

This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH.

Kumbajah, I understand your frustration, but the CH debate has been beaten to death here and elsewhere - I am going to start a thread here shortly that will ask some more indirect questions about Hapkido itself, the nature of the art and when have changes been made so far from he original material that the art is not the same.
Now, the one thig I can say (again) is that if the OP has done his homework ( and I am sure that he has) he has seen the debate around CH and has concluded in his mind that it is irrelevant to his situation - so you and I can pull our hair out questioning elements of Pelligrini's technique - if the OP is happy, let's smile with him...
BTW, looks like the Quantico thing was fun - I have also taught at several military instilations and with several military groups over the years, and where it was lots of fun, I was never under any dilusions they would not have a firearm handy most of the time in their jobs - but we were a good distraction.

Now my own opinion is that CH is what it is. I am well aware of the lineage of Pelligrini, and as such am also well aware of the shortcomings of that material. BUT, CH is a "known entity" - anyone can do some study into the background of CH (and lots of other arts) and if it is right for them, then I think we can assume that an informed choice has been made. I have met some very nice and sincere people in CH.

CH is a variant of the original Hapkido of Choi Dojunim, as probably 90% of the "Hapkido" worldwide is. I wish the word Hapkido was not in the title, but at least Pelligrini is somewhat honest in the evaluation that what he teachs is not Traditional - it is unfortuante in my opinion, that he has never really been exposed to the original material, so I think when he makes some statements they are often not fully informed, but rather based on his experience in yet another variant of the art from Myung and Seo. The problem is that when people are pushed to be more itellectually honest about what they have learned/teach try to defend tales told to them they accepted as truth. The Founder of Hapkido only died 22 years ago...the art is fully traceable through every lineage. Hopefuly in 2009, we can find a little more inellectual honesty.
 

Kumbajah

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BTW, looks like the Quantico thing was fun - I have also taught at several military instilations and with several military groups over the years, and where it was lots of fun, I was never under any dilusions they would not have a firearm handy most of the time in their jobs - but we were a good distraction.

This is an excellent point and I think often overlooked. Much of what we do in MAs weather traditional or "modern" is irrelevant to their needs. We do have things that they can borrow ( hand cuffing, weapon retention, falls) but most things are extraneous.

The only reason the FBI thing came up because one poster seemed to think it was a prerequisite for talking about GM P.

Good post.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH.
I offered this possiblilty back on page seven, but all of the follow up had to do with GM.P's perceived ability and qualifications.
It could be for some schools that they just want to have something to say, "my dan certifications have more than just my say so" because some customers feel that that is important. It could also be that the CH org offers club insurance (don't know if they do) at a discounted rate. Since CH doesn't seem to require a school to disassociate itself from all other orgs and doesn't require the schools to conform to any specific business model, I can see where it would be appealing for a school that wants some kind of organizational backing but wants to remain relatively independent.
Since CHD is marketed as a bolt on curriculum as well as a full curriculum, going GM.P.s org is a good way to get organizational backing without having all sorts of restrictions or requirements placed upon the school.

Terry hasn't posted on this thread in a while and only he can answer that in any detail, though if I recall from early on in the thread, that was one of the considerations.

Daniel
 
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terrylamar

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Hello everyone,

I think that if the OP wants to include CH in his dojang, this is completely his choice, and he has as much access to the internet and the opinions about Pelligrini as everyone else.

I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal.

Actually, it is a big deal. The distance is 150 miles to the closest city with Hapkido. That mileage is to San Antonio, not where Hapkido is taught within the city. 150 miles times two, I do have to get back. 300 miles per trip, figure five hours driving time for one training sessiion. 300 miles cost somewhere arround $40.00 in my F350 at current fuel prices. A few short months ago it was double that.

I teach classes Monday through Friday 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM, Saturday 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM. With those hours and that distance, I have not been able to find a Hapkido class. I did and do an extensive search, I have not given up finding a Hapkido class that I can attend, but the search seems fruitless.

My availible hours are, adjusting for drive times, 11:00 PM to 2:00 PM the next day. I drive to Austin every weekend, a four hour trip and don't arrive until after 5:00 PM on Saturday. I do have all day Sunday.

I had a lead on a school that held classes on the third Sunday of each month, sadly, that ended some time ago.

With my schedule and teaching commitments the only other live training I can attend will be seminars. That, I intend to do and not only Combat Hapkido seminars. So, I may see some of you at these seminars.

Now, I have heard that CH as a large amount of material on DVD and this can be a help if you cannot attend regular classes - but is it then a case of polished advertising material, or strong Hapkido? This is a question I ask many people that say they train with me for proximity - if that is the only reason, they should look around and be sure I am the type of place they want.

No, it is not becasue of slick advertising. I am 52 years old and have been arround the block once or twice. I started taking Martial Arts, Judo, in the mid 70's while in the Marine Corps. The ICHF fits my needs. Despite the controversy, at least in some people's minds, Combat Hapkido I find to be a credible system. I, also, find that the ICHF fills my needs after a long conversation with GM Pellegrini.

I attended a seminar with GM P. back in 1989. Something, many, if not all of his distractors have not done. Since then, I went on to earn a Black Belt in a traditional style of Hapkido. I wish to progress, and I find the best way is through Combat Hapkido, supplemented by seminars.

This is just curiosity, for the OP, again, not having a dog in the fight if you will, I am just wondering if it is really a distance issue or were other factors at work, like polished advertising that drew you to CH

There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.

Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone. To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge. Perhaps, instead of worrying about my motivations, you need to examine your own.
 
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Kumbajah

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There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.

The problem with this counter argument is, 1. one ends up supporting the Personality or organization financially. So they are laughing their way to the bank. They would want more paying doubters - their money is just as spendable as the true believers.

Secondly in the "age of information" there are many visual resources. I have tried to discuss the merits of the technique that can be derived from those sources. As of yet I haven't received any counter argument. Something along the lines of "we do it that way because..." or "we deviate from other Hapkido and Jujutsu executions because..." I think that you are in the unique position to compare and contrast because you have exposure to both. The techniques that are in the video I posted are also practiced in traditional hapkido and Jujutsu so many have familiarity with variations with these techniques. Yet all the CHKD supporters say is take a seminar.

With that being said, I will happily attend a seminar if someone else is paying. There is one in my area in March. :)
 

Father Greek

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Terry, I am very happy that you are pleased with your affiliation with ICHF. I too had an extensive background in the Martial Arts and made the change to Combat Hapkido. I found that the program was more germain to todays societal ills and made more sense then most of what I did in the past. I was able to incorporate some of the techniques that I used to teach into my current program and my students seem quite pleased. I am an IPDTI and Military Combatives Instructor also and have found that the Military and Police personnel that we have trained have been very receptive and realize the practicallity of our techniques. If there is anything that you need please feel free to contact me.

Father Greek
State Director for Ohio
 

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