CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
Well there's only one alternative to getting old. I hope you keep that at bay for a while
Yes and it is one of the two inevitabilities in life. That and taxes.
Hapkido Curriculum
- Thread starter terrylamar
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Yes and it is one of the two inevitabilities in life. That and taxes.
Whatever...
I have been too quite a few and was impressed..Again unlike you Brian I will NEVER put down any one system of GM until I have experienced it in person..
Father Greek
Green Belt
I have been watching this thread for some time now and can honestly say that i am very disappointed. I cannot believe that long time practicing Martial Artists can be so ignorant as to believe that one style is better than another. Can a Judo practioner beat a TKD practioner in a fight and vice versa? Can a Hapkido practioner beat an Aikido practioner in a fight and vice versa? The answer is OF COURSE! It is not the style, but the abilities of the Martial Artist that makes the difference.
As for this ongoing battle about DVD learning, it works well for some and not for others. Again it comes back to the abilities of the individual. this is neither good nor bad just different.
And finally for those of you who seem to think that GM Pellegrini is some type of fraud, please come to one of his seminars and volunteer to be his ukei. If you feelthe same way after I will then respect your opinion.
Respectfully,
Father Greek
As for this ongoing battle about DVD learning, it works well for some and not for others. Again it comes back to the abilities of the individual. this is neither good nor bad just different.
And finally for those of you who seem to think that GM Pellegrini is some type of fraud, please come to one of his seminars and volunteer to be his ukei. If you feelthe same way after I will then respect your opinion.
Respectfully,
Father Greek
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Gentlemen, reading through the above exchanges this is getting awfully close to requiring some 'official' involvement, so might I remind everyone that not only do we expect our members to be able to disagree amicably on a given topic but also that we have very tight policies on what might be termed 'fraud busting'?
We all have our opinions on certain sensei or styles around the globe (I know I do) but it is beholden upon us here in these fora to steer clear from harshly negative statements which are plainly targeted at individuals in the martial arts world.
If we do not, then not only are flame wars only a spark or two away but also MartialTalk can become liable for any legal action that such maligned individuals choose to take.
So, gentlemen, a little more warmth and circumspection if you would.
We all have our opinions on certain sensei or styles around the globe (I know I do) but it is beholden upon us here in these fora to steer clear from harshly negative statements which are plainly targeted at individuals in the martial arts world.
If we do not, then not only are flame wars only a spark or two away but also MartialTalk can become liable for any legal action that such maligned individuals choose to take.
So, gentlemen, a little more warmth and circumspection if you would.
Kumbajah
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I don't think this is a discussion of style vs style but rather a person that seemed to have failed to learn proper basics of an art and then started his own.
If you look at any other Hapkido Organization heads you will see a marked difference in ability compared to GM P. There will be stylistic differences between them. That isn't a problem imo, but going against the principles or failing to utilize them that make Hapkido Techniques work is a problem imo. This is apparent in GM P's execution.
If you look at any other Hapkido Organization heads you will see a marked difference in ability compared to GM P. There will be stylistic differences between them. That isn't a problem imo, but going against the principles or failing to utilize them that make Hapkido Techniques work is a problem imo. This is apparent in GM P's execution.
I'm going to assume that you didn't have chance to see what I asked above before your last post.
It would be best if the matter were allowed to rest at this point.
Mark. A. Beardmore
MT Moderator
It would be best if the matter were allowed to rest at this point.
Mark. A. Beardmore
MT Moderator
I would respectfully refer folks to my post #61 in this thread.
I realize that any time someone splits off, or designs their own art, there will be criticism. I'm personally rather skeptical of such, especially when it's accompanied by grandiose claims, and the type of rank titles and honorifics that would make a Sci-Fi Geek blink.
I don't believe GM Pellegrini however falls into that group, in my limited familiarity with him, his system and his students.
If the claim is that his art is lacking 'something', it is after all, his art with the components in it he chose to include. This is true of all arts.
If the claim is his techniques are sloppy, flawed, etc, I have to ask, by whose standards? Rather than say "he sucks", a better solution would be to take a well known technique or form, and compare various recognized experts doing the same.
In all honesty, is it really bad technique, or is it merely that same difference of opinion that has EPAK people screaming, where the differences are in a degree or 2 or a minor variation of angle, or difference of intent?
The best way to judge anyone's effectiveness will always be of course, to work with them. If you aren't willing to do that, then......
I realize that any time someone splits off, or designs their own art, there will be criticism. I'm personally rather skeptical of such, especially when it's accompanied by grandiose claims, and the type of rank titles and honorifics that would make a Sci-Fi Geek blink.
I don't believe GM Pellegrini however falls into that group, in my limited familiarity with him, his system and his students.
If the claim is that his art is lacking 'something', it is after all, his art with the components in it he chose to include. This is true of all arts.
If the claim is his techniques are sloppy, flawed, etc, I have to ask, by whose standards? Rather than say "he sucks", a better solution would be to take a well known technique or form, and compare various recognized experts doing the same.
In all honesty, is it really bad technique, or is it merely that same difference of opinion that has EPAK people screaming, where the differences are in a degree or 2 or a minor variation of angle, or difference of intent?
The best way to judge anyone's effectiveness will always be of course, to work with them. If you aren't willing to do that, then......
Kumbajah
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At the risk of stepping over the line - I'm just following Bob's lead.
For me it two problems - the one of distance learning. And...
Secondly the skill level of GM P. I have tried to point out that it is not merely a stylistic difference, There are many styles of Korean MAs that draw from HKD - Kuk Sool Won, Hwarangdo, Han Mu Do, Hankido, etc. all have marked stylistic differences. Yet you can see the mastery of each the Founders. By extension you can look at the Jujutsu arts that Hapkido shares principles. Again you will see a level of mastery from higher ranked people.
Things that I see in GM P's execution that are counter to all the principles that are shared by these various arts are ( not a complete list ) in part:
Stutter stepping through techniques, Trying to manipulate an attackers joint far away from his body ( not utilizing the strength of whole body movement) Trying to manipulate the joint separately rather then part of a whole, Usually attempting the manipulation or throw too far away from the attacker, the proper position is ignored in deference to trying to "attack" the attacker.
Here is a sample -
Those of you that practice hapkido or other Jujutsu arts share many of the same techniques. Can you honestly say that he seems to have mastered these techniques. It's not as if these techniques are new. They are shared across a variety of arts. Putting stylistic differences aside I think that most ( those outside CHKD) would agree with my assessment.
For me it two problems - the one of distance learning. And...
Secondly the skill level of GM P. I have tried to point out that it is not merely a stylistic difference, There are many styles of Korean MAs that draw from HKD - Kuk Sool Won, Hwarangdo, Han Mu Do, Hankido, etc. all have marked stylistic differences. Yet you can see the mastery of each the Founders. By extension you can look at the Jujutsu arts that Hapkido shares principles. Again you will see a level of mastery from higher ranked people.
Things that I see in GM P's execution that are counter to all the principles that are shared by these various arts are ( not a complete list ) in part:
Stutter stepping through techniques, Trying to manipulate an attackers joint far away from his body ( not utilizing the strength of whole body movement) Trying to manipulate the joint separately rather then part of a whole, Usually attempting the manipulation or throw too far away from the attacker, the proper position is ignored in deference to trying to "attack" the attacker.
Here is a sample -
Those of you that practice hapkido or other Jujutsu arts share many of the same techniques. Can you honestly say that he seems to have mastered these techniques. It's not as if these techniques are new. They are shared across a variety of arts. Putting stylistic differences aside I think that most ( those outside CHKD) would agree with my assessment.
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I don't feel personally qualified to judge his degree of mastery, being that I am a sixth geub hapkidoin.
I do know that I've been around a bit and have had a fairly generous amount of practical SD and exposure to joint locks, sweeps and takedowns, as these have been a part of my taekwondo classes, so I do feel that I'm in a postition to judge if the guy is a fake, and there is nothing in the clip that you posted that would lead me to believe that he's incompetent in any way. He moved with confidence and certainly didn't have the look of a novice about him.
I've never been to any of his seminars, but it is very possible that the man is an incredibly skilled teacher.
Perhaps you're seeing something that I'm not, so I'm not going to say that you're right in your estimation or not. And without attending a seminar or viewing the curriculum, I will refrain from making estimations of him.
In any case, my impression of the video is that if I didn't know who he was and I walked into his school and saw him perform the way that he did on the video in the context of a lesson, it wouldn't make me turn and walk out; I'd need more than three minutes and eight seconds to decide that.
Daniel
I do know that I've been around a bit and have had a fairly generous amount of practical SD and exposure to joint locks, sweeps and takedowns, as these have been a part of my taekwondo classes, so I do feel that I'm in a postition to judge if the guy is a fake, and there is nothing in the clip that you posted that would lead me to believe that he's incompetent in any way. He moved with confidence and certainly didn't have the look of a novice about him.
I've never been to any of his seminars, but it is very possible that the man is an incredibly skilled teacher.
Perhaps you're seeing something that I'm not, so I'm not going to say that you're right in your estimation or not. And without attending a seminar or viewing the curriculum, I will refrain from making estimations of him.
In any case, my impression of the video is that if I didn't know who he was and I walked into his school and saw him perform the way that he did on the video in the context of a lesson, it wouldn't make me turn and walk out; I'd need more than three minutes and eight seconds to decide that.
Daniel
Kumbajah
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If you can't see any problem with his execution then I am glad that I took the time to comment This partially the problem imo. If you seen it done correctly the difference is obvious imo. If you haven't ... well he might seem like he knows what he's doing.
Compare to
I have no idea who these people are but they do hapkido better than GM P. ( they're not "names" ) Take special note of the amount of steps they take per technique, their posture and using weight shifts to affect the attacker. The difference is obvious to me - if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer.
This partially the problem imo. If you seen it done correctly the difference is obvious imo. If you haven't ... well he might seem like he knows what he's doing. Compare to
I have no idea who these people are but they do hapkido better than GM P. ( they're not "names" ) Take special note of the amount of steps they take per technique, their posture and using weight shifts to affect the attacker. The difference is obvious to me - if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer.
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I would have to echo a few above and say that it is essential that you work with the man before passing judgement. I have attending a GM P seminar as well as seminars offered by instructors in his organization. His techniques and style focus on effectiveness and I can say with 100% surety that they are effective and they work. That is all that matters. I cannot comment on the man himself or his skills, except to say that everything that I learned from him and his style is effective.
BUT, as Sukerkin said above, it may be best to let this topic rest for now. If you are interested in a discussion on particular techniques and effectiveness, that is a different story, but this is not the place to decide on an individual's skill.
BUT, as Sukerkin said above, it may be best to let this topic rest for now. If you are interested in a discussion on particular techniques and effectiveness, that is a different story, but this is not the place to decide on an individual's skill.
Kumbajah
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But that is the crux of the problem. The techniques come from Hapkido which are effective but not in the way that are manifested through his execution. If one is going to buy his program ( videos, seminars, rank etc) which was the focus of the OP I think that it would behoove them to have an assessment of his skills because it shows his understanding of the principles which the techniques are based on.
I posted this regarding video/correspondence instruction on another thread, but I'll repost it here, but applied to GM Peligrini's instruction via DVD. Keep in mind that this was posted on a different thread in response to different posts, but I believe that it is applicable to the video instruction part of this thread as well.
"I think that having a background in an art or a skill helps greatly in the use of video instruction. But video instruction is more effective for some people than for others. Different people learn most effectively through different senses. Some people see it and pick it up; these are visual learners. Others depend greatly on the verbal content and others need to do something with a literal guiding hand twenty times before they can do it themselves even once.
I have trained in places and seen classes where the students may as well have been watching a video. The instructor was physically present in the room, so yes, it was an in person instructor, but they didn't do anything beyond showing the techiques to the class visually. Needless to say, the visual learners were able to get much more out of these classes than everyone else. A school I trained at years ago had an instructor who taught that way and aside from myself and three others, everyone hated his classes. I preferred the other classes, but didn't hate this guys. But I am also a visual learner. If he had been the only instructor, I would have gone elsewhere, as there were times when I needed more than just a visual demonstration.
I wish that I could say that that sort of instruction wasn't the norm, and maybe it isn't, but it is much more commonplace than it should be, particularly in my area, where McDojos are all over the place. Compared to some very horrible schools I've seen (thankfully not too many) and heard about (more than I'd have cared to know existed), DVD instruction would be preferable.
I havent seen the CHDK vids, so I have no comment on them specifically. Regarding video instruction, I think that the key things to remember with a DVD instructional class are:
Firstly, knowing what kind of learner you are. If you can't pick up things visually, then a DVD instructional course is a complete waste of money.
Secondly, being aware of the limitations of correspondence learning is important: it isn't the same as having an instructor there. You can't ask it a question and get an immediate answer and it cannot critique you.
Thirdly, student with a solid background in either the same style or several similar styles will get a lot more out of a DVD instructional than a novice. An advanced student will already have a good understanding of body mechanics, timing and distance, chambering, sparring and practicing with a resisting opponent and such that someone with no previous experience in any martial art will have. I have a large amount of books and some videos and those have provided a lot of useful and helpful insights to me during my training. But I feel that I get a lot more out of them because I already know what I'm looking at than I would have if I'd never set foot in a dojo."
Daniel
Kumbajah
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I have laid out some of my problems with distance learning and the function of DVDs in one's training earlier in the thread. There is still the problem of the instruction regardless of the vehicle. You gain understanding though explanation, watching and copying (auditory, visual and kinesthetic ) we all utilize each to varying degree. Most people have a dominate learning style. Now my problem with not doing a technique demonstrating the proper principles are : If you are a visual learner you get the wrong information there isn't a way to make the leap from improper to proper without knowledge of the proper. If you are an auditory learner - you may receive the "proper" explanation but the visual doesn't match the audio, confusing at best or the understanding was never there so you can't get the proper explanation. If you are "doer" or Kinesthetic learner, first, you are out of luck with a DVD if it is a seminar you don't get the proper physical feedback. As the attacker you feel the technique done incorrectly as the defender you only have what you felt as an attacker and the physical model of the instruction as your guide. If he takes a bunch of little steps to affect a technique is must be correct -no?
I'll discuss a specific technique from the video posted later, when I have a bit more time. Today sometime.
I'll discuss a specific technique from the video posted later, when I have a bit more time. Today sometime.
Kumbajah
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:08 to :12 from
Is a "standard" hapkido arm bar. The progression - the attacker punches, you step off line, you use his momentum to take him to the floor using his arm as a lever taking him to the deck.
Why I think his application is wrong, not just stylistically different, is in his manifestation the attacker becomes the center of the motion where as in Hapkido and other Jujutsu arts the defender is the center of the motion and the attacker movers around you.
GM P deflects the punch and bars the arm. He then moves his body through a series of small steps around the lock to the point that he has moved 360º and the attacker is on the deck. This is not in keeping with the principles of Hap/Ju/Ai/Non resistance etc. One this inefficient use of motion the same movement can be achieved though one step and a pivot. Two instead, of using the momentum of the attacker you are stopping his motion and then forcing him into moving instead of transferring his forward momentum into downward momentum. The large arc of the movement makes it a strength against strength movement. The "struggle for power" GM P's forearm and his elbow happens outside GM P's sphere of influence - he's chasing the lock. Thirdly the large arc doesn't utilize a weight transfer. This is also part of chasing the lock - the power is isolated in the arm, he's not using the whole power of his structure to drop the attacker. Try pressing down on someone that is larger than you without using your weight and see if they can't stand up or conversely if you are large have someone do it to you. If use your weight the power of the technique is greatly increased.
To be continued...
Is a "standard" hapkido arm bar. The progression - the attacker punches, you step off line, you use his momentum to take him to the floor using his arm as a lever taking him to the deck.
Why I think his application is wrong, not just stylistically different, is in his manifestation the attacker becomes the center of the motion where as in Hapkido and other Jujutsu arts the defender is the center of the motion and the attacker movers around you.
GM P deflects the punch and bars the arm. He then moves his body through a series of small steps around the lock to the point that he has moved 360º and the attacker is on the deck. This is not in keeping with the principles of Hap/Ju/Ai/Non resistance etc. One this inefficient use of motion the same movement can be achieved though one step and a pivot. Two instead, of using the momentum of the attacker you are stopping his motion and then forcing him into moving instead of transferring his forward momentum into downward momentum. The large arc of the movement makes it a strength against strength movement. The "struggle for power" GM P's forearm and his elbow happens outside GM P's sphere of influence - he's chasing the lock. Thirdly the large arc doesn't utilize a weight transfer. This is also part of chasing the lock - the power is isolated in the arm, he's not using the whole power of his structure to drop the attacker. Try pressing down on someone that is larger than you without using your weight and see if they can't stand up or conversely if you are large have someone do it to you. If use your weight the power of the technique is greatly increased.
To be continued...
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I'll have to view these clips later, as I am at work and Youtube is blocked.
Daniel
Daniel
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Brian R. VanCise
A number of posts in this thread are continuing to be brought to the moderating staff's attention. I would like to remind everyone that MartialTalk is not interested in being a Fraud Busting site.
Fraud Busting is not tolerated nor will we allow it as a regular course of action.
Please read our rules located here concerning fraud busting.
If anyone has a problem with this statement, address it to the Steering Board.
MartialTalk Assistant Administrator
Brian R. VanCise
