Hapkido Curriculum

[Kumbajah]

I think there is a huge difference on how you learn a technique.

It is my opinion that the outer form of the technique can be approached by viewing a video but the subtleties are missed. Learning step here, twist this way etc is simply the first step but is hardly owning the technique. Especially with a compliant partner. There is also a level of what works based on the level of training your partner has as well. There is a difference to making it work against someone that never has had their wrist twisted and someone that has had it twisted thousands of times.

When learning in a class environment you get to practice on a variety of body types, temperaments and skill level. Again the level of "what works" will be different. There are tweaks that are immediately apparent to a experienced teacher that two black belts will never catch. You may get to them by trial and error but you are teaching the error until you stumble across the fix. A disservice to your students imo.

A video tape is a very small moment in time with limited parameters. Basically it is saying this is how to execute this particular technique against some one with this body type against this particular attack, at this distance, at this particular speed and at this particular intensity. Change anyone of those things and the execution changes. Being able to make this adjustments come from experience, yours and hopefully the person instructing you. Harder and faster is not an answer to make something work.

There is also a safety factor. Knowing when you or someone else is in danger in the execution of a technique. People get hurt in hapkido - that is it's intention by design. Knowing how to modify the technique for safe practice is a skill and knowing the difference between a modified skill and another type is a skill as well. Hapkido is brutal but achieves it by subtleties.

I still think this method belittles the art and does a disservice to students. I wouldn't feel like I was properly and honestly preparing my students to face the challenges that they may face. You are obviously of a different opinion - I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

 

[terrylamar]

Many of the same arguments you use were used years ago with distance learning for various trade schools. In most cases they were valid.

Improvements were made, especially with advent of the internet. Today many major univerisity systems offer a distant learning option. Their degrees carry the same weight as attending campus courses. Certification is indistiguisable from those that attended the campus program.

I do believe some of your arguments are valid. That is why training with other practitioneers is so important, just as open communication and attending seminars.

During these events you get to test your application of the individual techniques and tweak them.

What I do like about Combat Hapkido is that there is a core curriculum, but you are not limited to teaching just that. You can bring in any of your previous experiences as well as explore other avenues.

In my case I have studied Hapkido for over nine years. I know I still have a long way to go. Unfortuneatly, I am in a rather remote area of Texas and I have no hapkido schools with 150 miles. Combat Hapkido and the ICHF seem ideal for me and my school. We are all happy with the affiliation and we are all sleeping very well at night.

 

[Kumbajah]

I can appreciate the fact that you don't have a Hapkido school in close proximity and you want to offer your students something more.

I still see a disconnect between learning an intellectual subject and a physical one. So I don't see your university / trade distance learning as a valid corrilation. Understanding the physics that make a technique work and being able to pull it off as separate manifestations. Sometimes it takes feeling a master doing the technique to you to understand how it works.

I can also appreciate that you don't have a valid venue (imo) to pursue and you are doing the best that you can. I suppose the problem that I have is not allowing you students to see the limit of the scope that you have to offer. I realize that it is an awkward position to put yourself as a school owner but I think that you owe it to them to be honest about the scope and depth of the knowledge of the material that you are transferring. You are putting yourself out as an authority and they put their trust in you. To give them a inflated sense of authority in your ability and them an inflated sense of their ability is dishonest and potentially deadly.

 

[terrylamar]

My arguement still is that if it works, it works. It doesn't matter if I get it out of cracker jack box, invent it on the spot or watch a DVD. While I understand your concerns, my execution of any techniques is and will continue to be validated by someone far more experienced than I.

 

[Kumbajah]

I'm still leery of your "if it works" argument. Works how? A partner stands there while you do something to him. That is a demo. It is part of the learning process but not the end of it. Imitating the limited scope of a video tape is not learning Hapkido, it is visceral process. One that can't be conveyed through a video. What you think you see and what is actually going on are not necessarily the same.

When learning THKD I'm sure you felt the difference between your instructors technique and your fellow students.

Again you are being evaluated and validated in sporadic jumps. As an instructor you know that it is easier to teach a new skill then to try make someone unlearn a incorrect one. So there is the chance ( a good one imo but not guaranteed ) that you are instilling a bad habit that you are going to have to correct. In the meanwhile they are walking around with a flawed skill set.

Also, your students can watch the same video - why do you see your interpretation as more valid then theirs. Would you allow an assistant instructor to take home a video and then teach it in your school? If so, why are you in the loop - why not just sell the tapes to your students. I'm sure the adults are just as intellectually capable as you are. They would be learning from the same source as you.

If not, how do you see your situation as different? How do you see your filtering and relaying the information as more valid than them simply learning from the tape? If it's good for the goose...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Realistically, if you have a good, solid understanding of body mechanics, there are only but so many ways to twist, lock, or grapple an opponent. There are only but so many ways to actually strike an opponent. Everything else is variation on existing themes. And I would think that a practitioner with nine years of hapkido under his or her belt would have a fairly solid, if not very solid grasp of that.

My guess is, and Terry can correct me if I'm wrong, that there really isn't anything new or revolutionary about combat hapkido, but rather it is the specific combination of techniques contained in the curriculum coupled with training with an emphasis on practical SD.

If one is already has a solid practical SD background, then once again, lessons learned from a DVD should not be difficult to apply. I do still maintain that if distance is an issue, as it is in this case, one should find the closest school of the appropriate style, whatever it is, and arrange to check in every few months for minor course corrections and objective in person feedback.

Daniel

 

[terrylamar]

If not, how do you see your situation as different? How do you see your filtering and relaying the information as more valid than them simply learning from the tape? If it's good for the goose...

Well, I would say my thirty plus years in the Martial Arts and nine years in Hapkido does give me a slight advantage.

So, I'm still the Head Gander and they are all still goslings.

 

[Kumbajah]

In theory I agree with you Dan, but I have seen some craptacular hapkido. It speaks to my point that the devil is the details. It's hard to self correct. You may think you are doing something "just like the DVD" but without someone that knows, neither are you going to. I know that the couple of times I've been sidelined it has taken time and supervision to get me back up to par.

Something we haven't addressed is the CHKD curriculum is different than THKD, drawing from other arts (BJJ, FMA.) So some of this material is going to be new. So things outside his experience are going to be his best guess if he's doing them correctly. Something that he may be able to achieve by muscle might not be the proper technique " But I can make it work this way" Yes, but what about your students, or what about in 10/20/30 years.

There is really no substitute for proper technique which comes from proper instruction and sweat equity.

 

[Kumbajah]

Well, I would say my thirty plus years in the Martial Arts and nine years in Hapkido does give me a slight advantage.

So, I'm still the Head Gander and they are all still goslings.

100 years in TKD doesn't = 1 day in Hapkido. I thought this was all precipitated by you having lost contact with your hapkido instructor and having limited recourse - so saying 9 years in HKD is a bit misleading. It's not active training under an instructor. (Maybe 4-5 to first dan)

Again they are looking to you as an authority and you are leading with techniques that may be less than valid.

I think we'll just have to disagree - I think you are deluding your students and perhaps yourself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In theory I agree with you Dan, but I have seen some craptacular hapkido. It speaks to my point that the devil is the details. It's hard to self correct. You may think you are doing something "just like the DVD" but without someone that knows, neither are you going to. I know that the couple of times I've been sidelined it has taken time and supervision to get me back up to par.

Something we haven't addressed is the CHKD curriculum is different than THKD, drawing from other arts (BJJ, FMA.) So some of this material is going to be new. So things outside his experience are going to be his best guess if he's doing them correctly. Something that he may be able to achieve by muscle might not be the proper technique " But I can make it work this way" Yes, but what about your students, or what about in 10/20/30 years.

I do agree. Thus my caveat about finding a place to at least check in with. Just for the record, I am not a big proponent of DVD based curriculum. I do believe that agood DVD is better than a craptacular instructor, of which there are sadly many.

Techniques drawn from other arts would be best dealt with by finding a school that teaches the art and checking in with them as well.

Once again, I don't fully endorse the DVD rout, but I do think that it has its place and can be useful to an instructor.

Beyond that, yes, in person instruction is much preferrable.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

For me a DVD is valuable only as a reference tool. To use it as the primary instruction and certification is ludicrous. Better to have nothing at all.

"A little Learning is a dang'rous Thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring."

Traveling to the nearest large city once a month would be better. We have one Master Mr. Kattouf that travels to our school from Pennsylvania - about 3 hours - to train under GM Kim. He also attends a BJJ school in our area.

I have to respect that. It shows a lot of dedication on his part, to his training and to his students. He wants to give them the best that he can. Its someone you know is looking out for the best interests of his students.

 

[terrylamar]

For me a DVD is valuable only as a reference tool. To use it as the primary instruction and certification is ludicrous. Better to have nothing at all.

I don't agree with this statement in the least. When you have a foundation, a DVD can add to your understanding. It is a valuable tool. Just like a hammer isn't the only tool in your tool box, it is one of many and serves it's intended purpose. I agree there may be other tools that are better suited for a particular job.

Traveling to the nearest large city once a month would be better. We have one Master Mr. Kattouf that travels to our school from Pennsylvania - about 3 hours - to train under GM Kim. He also attends a BJJ school in our area.

I have to respect that. It shows a lot of dedication on his part, to his training and to his students. He wants to give them the best that he can. Its someone you know is looking out for the best interests of his students.

This is something I have stated that I would be doing, I am currently getting a list of schools in Texas from the ICHF for this very purpose. This would be supplemented by seminars and practice in Hapkido (as well as other Martial Arts) from other organizations.

I don't see how we are far off from each other's views other than I do see value in DVD's.

Regardless, I wish you the very best in your training and I will continue to improve and add value to what I teach by all means available to me.

 

[Kumbajah]

I can state the difference very clearly - you are using DVDs as your primary instruction which you are supplementing with seminars. I don't think this is a valid method. I know from instructing people in hapkido ( and you may have had a similar experience in TKD) that you can correct someone's technique one day and they are doing it the old way the next. Learning Hapkido is not a easy process. A seminar once a quarter isn't very diligent instruction IMO. Hapkido is more then a couple of Hoshinsul tricks. You stated that you are going for your second dan - which is new material not simply variations of your original dan, not to mention the stuff that comes from outside the Hapkido system - BJJ and FMA. This is completely NEW material. Yet you feel justified teaching it because you watched a video tape and plan to attend seminars in the future and maybe hook up with another school some point down the line. REALLY!?! - REALLY!?! This is quality instruction and giving your students a fair deal? REALLY!?!

If this was a person growth thing for you I would be much more understanding - if your execution was lacking the only one it would hurt is you. You are passing this off to students - for a price! I personally find it detestable. really.

The example that I offered - Master Kattouf receives his primary instruction from GM Kim. Not only does he travel 3 hours ( each way ) for instruction in HKD and BJJ he started over as white belt in our system after being Master ranked in his old system. He also brings his black belts down for training. He also holds a master in education. GM Kim also travels up to Penn. It's not even close to the same thing. Not by a mile.

 

[terrylamar]

It seems for some reason you wish to prolong this discussion and even turn it into an arguement. I do not wish to do so any longer. I am going to try once more then I'll be silent on this thread.

Yes, I am learning the 2nd Dan requirements. I am not teaching techniques at that level. All my students have no experience, whatsoever, in Hapkido and are at the yellow belt level. I am teaching them at the yellow belt level, what I would call very basic technique. It will take them approximately three years to get to black belt. In those three years I will continue to progress and still be ahead of their skill level. Even if it is working with other black belts and attending seminars and yes the dreaded and inferior DVD.

I have the utmost confidence that I can teach at the yellow belt level. During the years I have studied TKD all my instuctors have been 5th Dan and above in Hapkido. Over the course of 20 years I have had a lot of Hapkido intruction, just not structured.

Thankfully, I do not have to worry about your evaluation or opinion. I will continue to do what I am doing and you can go pick on someone else. I am sorry I do not live up to your expectations. Ni modo.

 

[Kumbajah]

It's not personal - It's the structure of distance learning I have a problem with. It is not good for the art and cheats the students. It gives the illusion of actually learning an art.

Hopefully if someone comes across this I might dissuade them from going down the path that you have chosen. Maybe this organization and others like it will cease to exist. It's just a revenue scheme. I place value on HKD other than monetary. This model does not.

What you may call basic I call fundamentals and it is what everything else is based on. Crap in - Crap out.

You can throw your hands in the air and " whudda ya gonna do" -

I say stop it. There is enough craptastic HKD out there without adding to it.

BTW It seems that TKD is fundamentally flawed in that the instructors don't think it's enough to teach it alone and seek to bolster it with Hapkido. I don't see HKD people seeking add on TKD. I yet to see a TKD studio that didn't mention HKD in the marketing material.

 

[terrylamar]

It's not personal - It's the structure of distance learning I have a problem with. It is not good for the art and cheats the students. It gives the illusion of actually learning an art.

It certainly does seem to be personal, if not against me, surely against an organization. You admit you cannot learn from this method. OK, not all of us are so limited. I learn this way very well, thank you.

Hopefully if someone comes across this I might dissuade them from going down the path that you have chosen. Maybe this organization and others like it will cease to exist. It's just a revenue scheme. I place value on HKD other than monetary. This model does not.

I do not see this happening. While you try to dissuade them I am telling them how good it is. While it isn't, maybe, as good as having a Grandmaster in your back pocket, it is an excellent method of learning. It isn't a "revenue scheme," but a very revolutionary method of bringing Hapkido to those who wouldn't be exposed to it because of their circumstances. I'm cururious to know how many hours you have spent with GM Pellegrini to know what his motives are. Have you even met him? Attended one of his seminars?

What you may call basic I call fundamentals and it is what everything else is based on. Crap in - Crap out.

Much like your entire rant. It is all "Crap out."

You can throw your hands in the air and " whudda ya gonna do" -

Actually, I am very happy with my choice. My students are happy with me. Your opinion doesn't count with us.

I say stop it. There is enough craptastic HKD out there without adding to it.

I don't really care, my world doen't revolve arround you and what you think about the ICHF. Anyway I find it strange you are attacking a particular person and style.

BTW It seems that TKD is fundamentally flawed in that the instructors don't think it's enough to teach it alone and seek to bolster it with Hapkido. I don't see HKD people seeking add on TKD. I yet to see a TKD studio that didn't mention HKD in the marketing material.

Sure, that is why all these Hapkido schools are adding ground grappling, weapons, kicks.......

I can give you GM Pellegrini's phone number and email if you want to take it up with him. Myself, I'm tired of your assaults on Combat Hapkido. Go play in someone elses sandbox, I need to get back to training.

 

[Kumbajah]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I think that people will see that your counter argument of - "well it works for me" as hollow. I don't think I'm going to convince GM P to give up his golden calf. But I do think I can show people that he's a paper tiger.

If you are happy in your delusion and content to delude your students who am I to stand in your way. Craptasic HKD for all my men!

Peace Brother. You're a hoot.

Oh btw ground grappling, kicks and weapons have always been a part of hapkido.

 

[terrylamar]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I think that people will see that your counter argument of - "well it works for me" as hollow.

I think not. You have been unable to prove that it does not. You will be unable to prove it does not. You are unwilling to state your experience with Combat Hapkido. I am beginning to think you have absolutely none. Your stated arguement is not with me, but GM Pellegrini and the ICHF. You wish both himself and his organization to go under. Take it up with him, not me.

I don't think I'm going to convince GM P to give up his golden calf. But I do think I can show people that he's a paper tiger.

You haven't been able to, up to this point. Your crap in, crap out, craptastic arguement has been and is a failure. The ICHF is far larger than your organization, whatever it may be.

If you are happy in your delusion and content to delude your students who am I to stand in your way. Craptasic HKD for all my men!

Still with the personal insults. Paper tiger, indeed.

Peace Brother. You're a hoot.

Oh btw ground grappling, kicks and weapons have always been a part of hapkido.

And so it has been with TKD, if we are to believe posts on the TKD Forum. Keep chugging backwards, I'll forge ahead.

Anyway, my Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu!

 

[Kumbajah]

You are learning from a video tape - you are teaching what you have learned from a video tape - you are charging for it - there really isn't much more to say.

I guess in land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Again, Peace Brother - it's your conscious bugging you not me.

BTW Hapkido's history and curriculum is fairly well documented - not the 2000 year bs TKD spouts. You're kind of flexing your ignorance.

 

[terrylamar]

You are learning from a video tape - you are teaching what you have learned from a video tape - you are charging for it - there really isn't much more to say.

I guess in land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Again, Peace Brother - it's your conscious bugging you not me.

BTW Hapkido's history and curriculum is fairly well documented - not the 2000 year bs TKD spouts. You're kind of flexing your ignorance.

Still spouting insults. Really, if you want to put the ICHF out of business, take it up with GM Pellegrini. Here is his contact info:

www.dsihq.com
(480) 895-9700

He is in Iraq right now, so maybe you can wait until next week to do him in.

Still waiting for that proof that he is a paper tiger.

I sleep very well at night. Thank you for your concern though.