Hansuki (Tiger Form)

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by kosho, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. kosho

    kosho 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi,
    Just asking what people think of this Shaolin kempo Karate form. and get some idears about this kata. I like this form. what are your thoughts?
    steve
     
  2. KempoShaun

    KempoShaun Green Belt

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    Beautiful form, and when down with some of the concepts Professor Chow intended for it (which is, sadly, rarely seen these days), extremely effective! My favorite section would have to be the opening sequences, tiger claw (obscuring), cannon punch (to get opponent to lean into the next strike), backfist (to hit opponent of the centerline), groin hammerfist to knock them back ON the centerline, double punchs to the ribs ("Professor Chow Special!"), another cannon punch, and a follow up tiger claw for good measure. Just awesome!
     
  3. RevIV

    RevIV Black Belt

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    Shaun,
    Hey just doing some quick readings while im out here in Japan and you talk about Prof. Chow but then make a reference to moves that were never in the original form? I like the opening hand sequence too, but who added them in? Was it Villari?
    In Peace
    Jesse
     
  4. kosho

    kosho 3rd Black Belt

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    hi,
    for me the strikes are . left hand cross hand shuto to face followed by a right back 2 knuckle to mid section, then a back fist to head area and a left rev hammer strike to mid section, then a right and left front 2 knuckle punch to the chest area followed by a right back 2 knuckle punch
    follwed by a left tiger claw and a right tigers claw and press out...
    I think I was told G M Cerio had a lot to do with this form????
    steve
     
  5. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    Sometimes discussions about the origins of a form will oversghadow discussions about what you can learn from the form. I note that most of this form has short in close rapid sequence hand striking often working up and down the body. Does anyone consider this an expression of a fighting style to be learned from the form?

    Respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  6. KempoShaun

    KempoShaun Green Belt

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    Oddly enough, I was discussing this with Rebelo Sensei today. Recently, things have come to light where it seems that Professor Cerio added the entire opening section of the form, including the Kosho Ryu breathing exercise and the fast flurry of strikes and double tiger claw rear guard position (as Master Chun II doesn't perform them in his father's version). As far as what I call the professor Chow special, I doubt Villari put that in, due to the fact he never trained with Chow, again, probably prof. cerio. Sadly, we may never know... For those who don't know what the Professor Chow special is, he loved to hit an area of the body, usually the ribs, twice in a row. the first strike would bend the ribs to their breaking point, and the second strike, with the ribs already poised on the point of snapping, would simply demolish them. Rebelo Sensei, a few years ago, when I was relearning Han Suki, actually demonstrated this on me (with the utmost care) and I can easily say I have NEVER felt my ribs move like that before. I love this for, in particular, because it is one of the only links we, in New England Kempo, have back to Master Chun, and for that reason, I will always treasure it.
     
  7. kosho

    kosho 3rd Black Belt

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    Thanks for the info: and the history on this Kata...
    steve
    Never move backwards to move forwards
     
  8. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    Thanks for the info on the 'Chow special' i note however that the double strike/ double block is very prevelant in most kempo styles...almost a characteristic of kempo...you will note that Prof. Kimo does it a lot and effectively...i wonder if kajukenbo has this feature also...it would make sense if Prof. Chow taught it.

    respectfully,
    Marlon
     
  9. KENPOJOE

    KENPOJOE Brown Belt

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    Hi Folks!
    Dear Jesse,
    Hope you are having a great time overseas! Hope to hear from you when you get back!
    RE: The opening technique and the form in general:
    The form "Hansuki/honsuki/hontsuki" is known to have been taught to Prof. Nick Cerio during one of his visits to Hawaii to train with Prof. William Kwai Sun Chow. The form was taught to him by Prof. William Chun Sr. The form as it is taught today in the shaolin Kempo style stems from that lineage.
    The form as it is taught is as I refer to it "The most commonly incorrectly done form in the system". Because most people do not know the sources that comprised the form in it's present format.
    To the best of my knowledge, Prof.Cerio was the person who changed the format of the form. n all proability, he simply did not remember who the form originally went or decided to include other aspects of his training with Prof. Chow in honor of what he had learned from Chow. The breathing exercise at the beginning of the form stems from James Mitose's "kosho ryu yoga breathing exercises" taught in Mitose's second book "What is true self defense". The technique that Shaun mentioned was one of Prof. Chow's techniques and was included in the present version and is not seen in the original form still taught by William Chun Jr. In all probability it was prof Cerio that altered the original format of the form. BTW, many times when Prof. Cerio saw someone do hansuki in tournament competition, he would normally have them scored within the first minute of the form because they would incorrectly do the breathing exercises! NOTE: Fred Villari DID NOT learn the form from Nick Cerio. He actually learned it from Prof. Cerio's brother,Frank, after Villari had left the Cerio organization.
    I hope that I was of some service,
    KENPOJOE
     
  10. KENPOJOE

    KENPOJOE Brown Belt

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    Hi Folks!
    Dear Kosho,
    It's interesting that you have the shuto chop as opposed to tiger claw at the beginning as well as end of the initial technique! That is normally taught later on in the form. The chop is done should be striking the philtrum. The backfist should be striking the temple area.The double front 2 knuckles are striking the solar plexus. The "tiger claw pressout" you refer to is actually the second technique into a "front ball strectching "stance [or close kneel for you american kenpo folks! As I mentioned previously mentioned,Prof. Cerio added and rearranged different segments before dropping the form from his system.
    I hope that I was of some service,
    KENPOJOE
     
  11. KENPOJOE

    KENPOJOE Brown Belt

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    Hi Folks!
    There is a wealthof information to be gleamed from this form and in the early 1970's, this form stuck out like a sore thumb because it came from an entirely different source and therefore did not "blend in" well with the rest of the system at that time. Perhaps that was the rwason for Ppof. Cerio's decision to delete from the NCK syllabus. I've detailed out many of the aspects of the form in the DVD/video I have out on the form. Please feel free to quote from it and see what you get out of it. I have done some work on the forthcoming second DVD detailing out the form in it's entirety as well as variation taught throughout the Shaolin Kempo family.
    BEGOOD,
    KENPOJOE
     
  12. kosho

    kosho 3rd Black Belt

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    KempoJoe,
    The Form, I learned it from Master John Evans. He is a Student of Hanshi Juchniks now for the past 10 yeras. . He holds a 5th degree in Shaolin Kempo Karate. The form for me has some kosho Ryu idears added into it. I really like this form and have seen other kempo peolpe do the form and it is really close to how i have it just some feet work and other small changes. I have talked with prof. Ingargiloa about the form and broken it down many times and every time learn something new... Thank you for the Input and Info: you have added...
    Steve
     
  13. CTKempo Todd

    CTKempo Todd Green Belt

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    Great Stuff gentlemen...

    Many thanks for the background.
     
  14. SK101

    SK101 Green Belt

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    Hello All,

    The breathing at the beginning of the form was taught to me as a 3 day preparation for war.

    Monk wakes up in the morning & develops chi. (Pinan 1 salutaion, Dragon breathes fire)
    The sun rises, the sun sets (hands coming together than dropping down)
    The moon rises, the moon sets (rising front position upside down, than double downward pressing palms)
    Monk becomes humble (Praying hands, bow)
    Monk wakes up develops chi Day 2 (Pinan 1 salutaion, Dragon breathes fire)
    Monk plants or harvests (Open hand front position toward the ground)
    Monk prepares for war (Front position coming up then going away twice)
    Monk wakes up in the morning & develops chi. (Pinan 1 salutaion, Dragon breathes fire)
    War - the beginning of Hansuki

    In the beginning you start off very slow & build your energy at the end you reverse this.

    Anyone have other interpretations of the beginning or end?
     
  15. Gufbal1982

    Gufbal1982 Purple Belt

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    I know the version taught in Irvine 1:

    Bow.
    Dragon Breathes Fire.
    Rising Sun.
    Setting Sun.
    Rising Moon.
    Setting Moon.
    Praying Monk.
    Humble Monk.
    Dragon Breathes Fire.
    Four Seasons meet.
    Dragon Breathes Fire.

    Closing:

    Dragon Breathes Fire.
    Four Seasons Meet.
    Humble Monk
    Praying Monk.
    Setting Moon.
    Rising Moon.
    Setting Sun.
    Bow.
     
  16. SK101

    SK101 Green Belt

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    I know the version taught in Irvine 1:

    Four Seasons meet. - Is this the same as open salutation toward the ground then cirle the hands up to 90 degrees past front position then 90 degrees prior 90 degrees past front position then 90 degrees prior again?
     
  17. SK101

    SK101 Green Belt

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    If four seasons meeting is the same as our Monk Prepares for war then you have it exactly as I do.

    Is Scott Mathenie still the CI at that studio?
     
  18. Gufbal1982

    Gufbal1982 Purple Belt

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    Um, no...he was at irvine 2 and he's gone from there. He has a camper and travels the states spreading the word of Jesus on a Christian rampage. Jack turner is the CI at i1. I have no idea what a monk prepares for war is.
     
  19. RevIV

    RevIV Black Belt

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    This is so much more elaborate then when it was first described to me. The way i was taught it quite awhile ago went like this
    Man gets up - stretches, blocks the sun with the rising sun block
    - Does his morning prayer
    - drinks his cup of tea, (upside down - front position)

    Then my current teacher Prof. Kimo introduced me to Udunde Kempo from Chosei Motobu Soke and showed me the applications from their perspective. Which makes sense seeing where the forms came from and the hand positions.
    Jesse
     
  20. fnorfurfoot

    fnorfurfoot Senior Master

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    These terms are new to me. What are you doing during "Four Seasons Meet"?
     

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